Me neither, the tracing distortion argument is wildly overstated by vociferous owners, as Fremer's maths clearly shows, and there are obvious downsides to 12" arms. Far more important considerations are the quality of the arm, the turntable, the phono stage, and the cartridge.
turntables with 12" arms that don't cost a fortune?
- Thread starter jamesd
- Start date
Me neither, the tracing distortion argument is wildly overstated by vociferous owners, as Fremer's maths clearly shows, and there are obvious downsides to 12" arms. Far more important considerations are the quality of the arm, the turntable, the phono stage, and the cartridge.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Surely the most important thing is not the quality (the engineering quality, presumably) but what turns you on the most AFTER experiencing other options.
Specifications and physics are one thing, but experience is second to none. Obviously one needs academic guidance to ensure compatibility, but without experience how can you eschew something out of hand because or conflicting statistics?
Apart from the obvious advantages (as against about the only vague disadvantage; that of rigidity), I'd say the sonic scenario is one of taste.
As I've mentioned before, this discussion about 12" versus 9" (or any other length) is surely ONLY apposite to those who can avail themselves of the choice. From what I've learned over the last few months, SME's decks are prescribed for one length arm only except in the case of one model in each of the 20 and 30 range; and that at a heck of a price addition. Happy to be informed otherwise, of course.
yes, Mike, what you say about SME decks is correct. All models are for use only with 9 inch arms (you could probably use the SME m2-10 also). the only exceptions are the 20-12 and 30-12. These have 'reversible' armboards, so you can use 9inch, 10 inch and 12inch arms. A couple of dealers also offer a 'cantilever' armboard so that you can use a 12 inch arm on the model 10.
Some of the comments previous to yours would be more impressive if there was any evidence that the guy had any experience whatsoever of 12 inch arms. Actually listening to things before forming an opinion isn't such an odd idea.
Some of the comments previous to yours would be more impressive if there was any evidence that the guy had any experience whatsoever of 12 inch arms. Actually listening to things before forming an opinion isn't such an odd idea.
Joe
pfm Member
Who is doing the stealing?... the seller?
The OP asked for arms not costing a fortune.
I guess that my idea of a fortune is different to that.
jamesd
pfm Member
If I'm "the guy" you're referring to, I have never heard a 12" toneaarm. I've never even heard the Shindo 301 that I, for whatever reason, covet. I'm just in turntable shopping mode and want to buy my last* turntable.
*last for at least a decade. My Rega p3 has put in 10 years of daily work
linnfomaniac83
I bet you can’t wheelie a unicycle!
Interesting, I actually owned a jelco SA750DB (the 9" version) and it was a very good arm. I last had it on a revolver deck that I loaned to a friend who managed to destroy it
.I wasn't aware of the 12" model.
The jelco head shells are really decent.
No, certainly not you...hope you weren't offended .
jamesd
pfm Member
nope!
Mike Reed
pfm Member
+ many, I'd say. Apart from the old 60's decks (301, 401, Goldrings, Thorens), some of which are now expensive anyway and require fettling and possibly plinthing, I can't think of anything other than Notts Analogue offering such a cost-effective and versatile entry into multiple and multi-length tonearms.
Also, a straightforward upgrade path and excellent arms to boot. Yes, there are used Platine Verdiers, Kuzmas and the like on occasion, but for new...........?
Surely the most important thing is not the quality (the engineering quality, presumably) but what turns you on the most AFTER experiencing other options.
Specifications and physics are one thing, but experience is second to none. Obviously one needs academic guidance to ensure compatibility, but without experience how can you eschew something out of hand because or conflicting statistics?
Apart from the obvious advantages (as against about the only vague disadvantage; that of rigidity), I'd say the sonic scenario is one of taste.
As I've mentioned before, this discussion about 12" versus 9" (or any other length) is surely ONLY apposite to those who can avail themselves of the choice. From what I've learned over the last few months, SME's decks are prescribed for one length arm only except in the case of one model in each of the 20 and 30 range; and that at a heck of a price addition. Happy to be informed otherwise, of course.
Funnily enough, Mike, the 12" arm I've most experience with is the same setup you have - Dais + NA arm. It's a very good-sounding deck of which you are justly proud.
But the thing is, I don't hear any tracing distortion from my own SME series V in the first place, so switching to a 12" arm to avoid distortion I can't detect seems a bit mad. The SME 30 is possibly a better turntable than the Dais. So even if I could hear problems with the V, it would be two steps forward, and three back.
That leaves the SME 30/12, but again I do not see the point of the additional expense to solve a problem which I can't hear. That money is better spent on a crazy dual-mono phono stage, IMHO. Or records. Or anything.
This is to say nothing of the downsides of 12" arms...
I assume it was me that you were attempting to offend. I wasn't offended either, as I am used to you.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Please, Please let me play a record on your turntable .....
I can't hear or understand this; maybe I need a head amp.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
I didn't know I was proud of my Dais; or in fact anything hifi, so thanks for pointing that out, James.
I didn't hear (or at least, recognise) any tracing errors/distortion on my SMEV either (on Orbe), but having had an SME 3012 with my 401 when I went to college in 1970, I wasn't exactly a stranger to 12" arms. As I was adamant about trying a mass deck (Raven A C was my first choice), it seemed obvious to go for the longer arm. Wonder which N.A. arm you heard on the Dais.
I would say that the SME is better engineered than the Dais, but as far as design goes, they're simply different, but I have to say that SME has its customer base a bit snookered when it comes to cost-effective arm choice; by design or lack of foresight? My first impression when I learnt of the limitation was the latter, esp. for that money.
I'd hazard a guess that put a Dais alongside a 20 or 30 with the same arm/cart. and the differences would be one of musical presentational taste, not of quality of sound. SME seems to encapsulate neutrality rather than emotional involvement. The Five is most certainly neutral; cool, even, just like SBLs. Can't fault this approach and it has a huge following, but as one gets older...........
I can't hear or understand this; maybe I need a head amp.
Mike, no matter how much the T-Rex begs do not let him near your turntable unless you want a new cartridge and tone arm. They are known to be reckless at the best of times.
Louballoo