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To Sub, or not to Sub...

Peter Keen

Peter Keen

pfm Member
...that is the question!

So, I find myself with a network receiver (a Yamaha R-N803 D) driving a pair of bookshelf speakers (Neat Motive 3's) in my second system. It offers the option of adding a Sub to the set-up, something that I am tempted to do as the unit includes a basic room correction system that might ensure the whole thing knits together properly. The Motives are a delight and do their best to go low but inevitably hit up against the laws of physics!

From what I can recall from past discussions on this matter (the placement of Subs in 2 channel, primarily audio systems) views range from "complete heresy" to "its tricky to get right". But have things moved with DSP/room correction etc.?

What experiences have people had going down this route - trying and achieve a full-range response in a room where large speakers are not an option?

Peter
 
Ha-ha, just ordered one and then saw this, done loads of reading on the subject over the years, yes, mixed views on their integration, I think it’s a case of try with the subs own adjustments, then if it’s impossible to dial it in get a dsp unit of some sort. I went for a BK XLS200, can’t wait. (Btw, I’ve small speaker like yourself, some Spendor S3/5r2’s).
 
Have a Look at the range of MiniDSP processors ( 2x4 perhaps) , their inexpensive hardware and software will allow you to integrate the sub/subs seamlessly.
Keith
 
I find a sub is great for enhancing movies but prefer listening to music without. Also incidentally have Neat Motive SX3's and I find the bass is very good in my smallish room.
 
Thanks folks, really helpful insights. UniQ - I agree, the Motives can clearly do base, and when sitting close, say less than 2m I can't complain, but on reasonable volumes in a room 4 x3m they struggle a little I feel, or to put it another way, I wonder if they would be better being relieved of the duty with a Sub and DSP in place. I should probably admit here to having a main system with PMC EB!i's which, if they do anything right they do bass! Not a fair comparison, I know.

I'd not heard of the BK Subs - impressive looking offer and one I'll have a serious look at I think.
 
Bk XLS200 sub here with small stand mounts in a second system and it’s so much better for it. No room correction here, just don’t make the common mistake of over egging it and keep the x over frequency low so it doesn’t give away localisation cues that the main speakers are getting their stereo image right with . . . Then you’ll be fine.
 
It has been a while since I last played with YPAO, but it should do a decent job of setting managing delays and crossover. I would certainly give it a try.
 
OK, now I'm getting seriously tempted by the MK offerings. Any views on optimal placement, or perhaps more importantly, what to avoid. I may be quite limited with where it can go - most probably quite near a wall or corner. And, in this context, what are the things to consider regarding downward vs side-firing?
 
Not sure what mK subs are like but Rel subs are pretty musical..
For positioning ideally I think it needs to be just behind the main speakers ,which isn’t always possible
But as long as it’s setup ok I’ve found it pretty good
 
Get a sub that does play low notes, as opposed to just thumping, and all will be well. The thing is to have the crossover point low enough. It's not the speakers that want to localization notes to come from them, it's the sound processor between your ears. It will swear that the lowest notes are coming from where the higher notes it uses for location are coming from. Amazing but true.
 
Peter Keen said:
...that is the question!
From what I can recall from past discussions on this matter (the placement of Subs in 2 channel, primarily audio systems) views range from "complete heresy" to "its tricky to get right". But have things moved with DSP/room correction etc.?
What experiences have people had going down this route - trying and achieve a full-range response in a room where large speakers are not an option?
Peter
Click to expand...

My experience of integrating a sub has been as you say, ranging from "complete heresy" to "very tricky to get right & even trickier to keep right" - until about 18 months ago when I bought a pair of ProAc Tablette Anniversary speakers which have excellent bass for their size but never-the-less somewhat limited. This particular system was primarily for film & already had a sub on the AV receiver .1 channel but I had bought the ProAcs due to a growing interest in 2 channel opera on blu-ray, so decided to give sub-integration one final go. The sub is a 15+ year old Castle Classic which is an ATC design in a beautiful Castle cabinet with 12" front-firing woofer, only inputs being left & right phono from the pre-outs my Rega Elex-R amp.
I decided to abandon the conventional set-up procedure by disconnecting the ProAcs & just listening to a piece of music with deep organ on the Castle. I initially set both cross-over & volume at the highest level to get a feel for how much really deep bass there was on the music & also how much upper bass came through on the Castle. This latter point was the crucial one as it was significantly more than I expected so it did not take me long to lower the cross-over substantially quickly followed by lowering the volume. When I got it to where I thought it was right I reconnected the ProAcs & played the music again - with my fingers crossed. There was a very minor bit of tweaking thereafter but I was really pleased with the result on music. However I knew that was only half the job done as I then needed to play my standard action test film, the launch scene of Apollo 13, to see whether it was still door-rattling. The answer was it sounded absolutely brilliant so I was one happy chappie.

Obviously you should try the DSP room correction method first, but you can fall back on my method for comparison if necessary. The main point is to go for it as when you get it right, the music is so much better. Final point to note, my sub is immediately to the left of my right channel ProAc, so between them but nowhere near the centre & firing across the line of the output from the ProAcs. As mentioned by an earlier poster, all the sound appears to come from the main speakers.
 
I'm using a Velodyne Optimum sub with some miniature Elacs and I wouldn't be without it. It uses a microphone and DSP / self-EQing gizmo to match itself to room placement / acoustics. It's amazing. I'm an analogue type of fella, but I'll take my bass below 50 cycles with a dab of digital!
 
Peter Keen said:
Thanks folks, really helpful insights. UniQ - I agree, the Motives can clearly do base, and when sitting close, say less than 2m I can't complain, but on reasonable volumes in a room 4 x3m they struggle a little I feel, or to put it another way, I wonder if they would be better being relieved of the duty with a Sub and DSP in place. I should probably admit here to having a main system with PMC EB!i's which, if they do anything right they do bass! Not a fair comparison, I know.

I'd not heard of the BK Subs - impressive looking offer and one I'll have a serious look at I think.
Click to expand...

Perhaps due to your Yamaha ?

I had Motive 3 and they were great from anything Rega Brio/R to Nait 5i and up

As for BK subs they are great vfm

I was so happy with a 200xls upstairs, I went and purchased a 400xls to main rig.

Just take care to go low with settings and place free from corner/walls
 
Hi PerF, you could be right about the Motives. Prior to the arrival of the Yamaha they were driven by a Cyrus XPA power amp, and I'd say the Yamaha matched it comfortably, but one the one occasion I hooked the Neats up to my main system amps - ECS AE-1 monoblocks (absolute beasts at 3x the size and mass of the speakers!) I was surprised by how much better they sounded. The spec of the Yamaha suggests it should have more than enough grunt and grip to drive the reasonably efficient Neats, but as that experiment showed, they appear to capable of more with better hardware upstream. Of course, everything upstream was better too, so not a fair comparison i guess.

I think I'm going to have to go reasonably close to a wall (30cm) so does anyone have views on whether I go for a down or laterally firing Sub?

Thanks, all, for the guidance and advice so far....
 
Hi Phil, Do let us know how the combination is working for you! Happy owner of S3/5r here and curious.

PhilofCas said:
Ha-ha, just ordered one and then saw this, done loads of reading on the subject over the years, yes, mixed views on their integration, I think it’s a case of try with the subs own adjustments, then if it’s impossible to dial it in get a dsp unit of some sort. I went for a BK XLS200, can’t wait. (Btw, I’ve small speaker like yourself, some Spendor S3/5r2’s).
Click to expand...
 
Peter Keen said:
I think I'm going to have to go reasonably close to a wall (30cm) so does anyone have views on whether I go for a down or laterally firing Sub?
Click to expand...

FWIW, I have two REL Stratas in one set-up and a single QI50e in another: REL actually recommend placing a single sub in a corner (Google: REL Room Setup).

This room has an open staircase in one corner and the forward-firing Q is tucked away under that. The Stratas are downward firing, one in a corner and the other across the room. In both cases the sound is coherent - as stated above, the essential thing (for music) is to have them just ticking over, unobtrusive but 'missing' when you switch then off.
 
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I have twin Bk xls400’s and could not listen to just a pair of standmounts on their own whatever the speaker
 
I used a single sub to accompany stand mounts for awhile, and found it to be a frustrating balancing act. Installing another sub cured that problem handily. It does require time and experimentation to sound musical, depending on taste.

I thought it would be ideal to implement passive subs with a central amp providing remote administration to compensate for the variance of sources. But then I realized I'd sit there adjusting the volume of the subs for 'perfect' balance instead of listening to music. So I adjusted them to sound good (slight cushion of lows) with a bass heavy source and left it.
 
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