Thorens TD-124/II restoration / upgrade

[mjkelshaw]

Robert,
I think you could also ask the same question of 1960's British Motorcycle Companies - Ha! Ha!
However, as one who witnessed my friends 'servicing' their 'pride & joy's' back in the 50's & 60's, and in the process using a hammer and screwdriver to remove nuts which they didn't have the correct spanner for, or in some cases when they didn't possess a 'spanner' of any description. Some leaks were the result of, shall we say the use of inappropriate tools / force by previous owners. In some cases of course, where large pressed steel casings had been used by the manufacturers, they were difficult to seal with the materials available at the time.
With respect to my own TD 124, it has never leaked, even after I had removed and re-fitted the bearing cap shortly after I purchased it second hand in the mid 70's. It was then subjected to one or two 'moves' within the U.K., before being transported to and across Canada in the early 80's, and later to Holland via the U.K. in the early 90's - it still hadn't leaked.
As with most things, including my '93 BMW R100 GS, and Landrover Discovery, manufacturers tend to fit parts which they deem 'fit for purpose', but in some instances those parts may be replaced with 'better' quality ones where necessary, or in my case, when I think it will be an 'improvement', which some times turns out to be merely visual - Ha! Ha!
Hence my question to Tony L & 'Shuggie' regarding the substitution of a different bearing end cap for the 'pressed steel' one originally fitted.

Regards

Mike Kelshaw

Forgive me if this is a silly question, but why did Thorens design a bearing with an oil leak?

 

[Shuggie]

Forgive me if this is a silly question, but why did Thorens design a bearing with an oil leak?

And indeed why do Schopper design their own bearing to leak in exactly the same way? Misplaced adherence to a venerable but flawed design, IMO, but a flawed design easily addressed at modest cost by replacing the end cap with something that does not deform.

Also bear in mind that Jim Campbell's bronze end cap upgrade kit is actually cheaper than buying the original pressed steel design from Schopper (see http://www.schopper.ch/index.php?page=main-platter-bearing-replacment-kit )

 

[Tony L]

Forgive me if this is a silly question, but why did Thorens design a bearing with an oil leak?

It doesn't if correctly assembled! These vintage decks all seem to have been designed with a removable thrust plate. Garrard, Thorens and Lenco all have a fairly similar design. I don't know whether this was done due to manufacturing limitations of the time or to facilitate easy service / thrust plate replacement. All are drip-free if sealed with just a little smear of grease on the gasket in the 301/401 & 124 and on the bottom thrust plate (both sides) of the Lenco. I remember being told this by the person I bought my first Lenco from in the late '70s, so it was common knowledge. It just seems to have been forgotten since. One should think of the tiny smear of grease on the gasket as part of the design - it works! I have all three, none leak a drop!

 

[johnfromnorwich]

That's worth knowing. My 301 bearing drips a little since being serviced. I'm guessing it was sealed with 40 years of crud before then. What type of grease do you recommend. Something pretty sticky I assume?

 

[Tony L]

I've got a tub of Castrol LM Grease, whatever that is. With a Garrard you just need a little on the both sides of the gasket that sits between the bearing and bottom-plate. Don't overdo it, the last thing you want to do is to get it up into the bearing where it may block the pores of the sintered bronze sleeve. It does no harm in the Garrard's thrust-plate assembly though, in fact I suspect it might be advantageous there.

 

[Robert]

It doesn't if correctly assembled! These vintage decks all seem to have been designed with a removable thrust plate. Garrard, Thorens and Lenco all have a fairly similar design. I don't know whether this was done due to manufacturing limitations of the time or to facilitate easy service / thrust plate replacement. All are drip-free if sealed with just a little smear of grease on the gasket in the 301/401 & 124 and on the bottom thrust plate (both sides) of the Lenco. I remember being told this by the person I bought my first Lenco from in the late '70s, so it was common knowledge. It just seems to have been forgotten since. One should think of the tiny smear of grease on the gasket as part of the design - it works! I have all three, none leak a drop!

Ah, got it.

I'd assumed the bearing housing/well was one piece like on say a Rega.

 

[Tony L]

Ah, got it.

I'd assumed the bearing housing/well was one piece like on say a Rega.

A 301/401 bearing is a truly bizarre thing:

For a start it's freakishly large, the picture doesn't do it justice - it's about twice as big as you'd expect. You can see the bottom plate with it's gasket, the thrust-pad assembly (which is very strange indeed) and the bearing shaft with it's circlip on the bottom.

The bearing in a TD-124 is a lot more normal and I guess represents an evolutionary mid-point between the Garrards and more modern decks. The above is a Schopper replacement bearing, though looks very like a stock one.

 

[Robert]

Bloody hell, you could probably place the record straight onto that and ditch the platter

 

[mjkelshaw]

Following my rather rambling posting regarding bearing end-caps and the sealing thereof - it was a result of yet another night of insomnia, and as a result I forgot to ask for recommendations for a suitable lubricating oil to use when I finally open up the bearing.
In the interim I have ordered an end-cap from 'Audiosilente' as I was not too sure about whether the 'ball' included with Jim Campbell's was a necessary part of his assembly or could just be left out.
I also noted when I re-read my original post that the point that I was trying to make was that sealing two surfaces with a paper gasket and a 'smear' of grease requires both mating surfaces to be clean and parallel to each other. However I wouldn't have thought that would have been a problem with the bearing of a 124 unless it had been seriously mishandled.

Regards

Mike Kelshaw

 

[Tony L]

After a year or two sitting in the wilderness (actually the upstairs landing) I thought it time to fling the 124 back in the system for a re-evaluation as rather a lot has happened there since it last got a look in:

The time passed has been good as I'm no longer stressed out about having spent such a daft amount of money in restoring the thing / taking advice from "experts" or businesses I perhaps should have approached with a little more scepticism etc. As it stands it is certainly one of the most expensive TD-124s on the planet and nothing will change that at this point, so I may as well use it! It was a huge learning curve and one I think I can now live with. The good thing is it is behaving itself exceptionally well and is running the quietest I can ever remember/the quietest I have ever heard any 124 run. It is also still absolutely beautiful and flawless in condition. There really isn't a mark on this thing anywhere, it looks brand new. I'd forgotten just how far I'd taken the thing to be honest!

I actually stuck it in the system as my Verdier preamp doesn't seem a great match with the 2M Black in the Garrard (it's a bit too toppy for my taste) and I'd not tried the MC stage so wanted to see if that worked. I figured that as the Garrard was due a dust and relube and the Thorens could do with a run I'd just swap the complete decks over rather than farting around switching carts. The 124 with it's near-new Denon DL-103 (and a mass weight hidden in the 3009 headshell) sounds lovely, very analogue and involving in a nice subtle way - it makes me want to play whole albums rather than picking at tracks which is a good thing.

The only negative is I'm getting a little low level hum and I can't figure out why - I suspect it's the 103 picking up the preamp somehow as it's not the 124 (still there with the deck stopped and disconnected from the mains) and it's not the arm wiring or phono stage either (it goes if I swap the headshell for one with no cart and the signal and return leads shorted). Puzzling. It's not loud enough to be audible, but annoying it is there. I'd like it not to be.

Another thing I'd like to try and understand is why this deck (and apparently many serviced 124s) start a little fast and then slow down after an hour or so? I'm just talking a little drift in the strobe window, nothing audible. I'd understand it if it was the other way around (i.e. oil heating up and distributing itself better across the bearing surfaces etc), but what exactly is happening here to cause this?

Anyway, I've boxed the Garrard up, I declare 2016 the year of the TD-124!

 

[Stuart Frazer]

That's a nice setup Tony and a lovely looking 124. I've always fancied one. Maybe I'll bite the bullet one day, if a good one becomes available at the right price. I'm going to get my 301 up and running this year - it needs a good service and maybe a repaint to get rid of a dust bug mark. It's probably a good topic for a new thread to see what options are out there.

 

[Shuggie]

I declare 2016 the year of the TD-124!

I should really do the same! Mine has been sidelined for much of the last year by a Kenwood KD-990.

 

[Barrymagrec]

Another thing I'd like to try and understand is why this deck (and apparently many serviced 124s) start a little fast and then slow down after an hour or so? I'm just talking a little drift in the strobe window, nothing audible. I'd understand it if it was the other way around (i.e. oil heating up and distributing itself better across the bearing surfaces etc), but what exactly is happening here to cause this?

I would surmise, and it really is just a guess, that as the motor warms up the increase in winding resistance causes a slight reduction in current and therefore torque. If I remember correctly the 124 uses a fairly chunky motor so the effect will be quite small.

 

[Tony L]

That's a nice setup Tony and a lovely looking 124. I've always fancied one. Maybe I'll bite the bullet one day, if a good one becomes available at the right price. I'm going to get my 301 up and running this year - it needs a good service and maybe a repaint to get rid of a dust bug mark. It's probably a good topic for a new thread to see what options are out there.

Excellent, lots of Garrard rebuild options around at the moment, far more so than the Thorens as you can buy good idlers, motor bushings etc. You'll never get rid of a dustbug mark without a respray as once any glue residue is off it is actually down to the area being shielded from light for 50 years or so, i.e. the rest of the deck's paint has faded. Please start a thread as I suspect much has happened since I did mine.

I would surmise, and it really is just a guess, that as the motor warms up the increase in winding resistance causes a slight reduction in current and therefore torque. If I remember correctly the 124 uses a fairly chunky motor so the effect will be quite small.

That sounds plausible. It is fighting against an eddie-current brake so even though it's a fairly chunky motor (a tiddler compared to the 301!) so it has some resistance to contend with, especially in my high voltage area. The drift I'm on about is minor, I can barely hear any pitch difference when adjusting the speed rapidly between the two points and I've got a pretty decent sense of musical pitch (i.e. I can almost play a fretless bass). If it had no strobe I'd never notice and the 301 may be a lot worse for all I know!

 

[Whaleblue]

After a year or two sitting in the wilderness (actually the upstairs landing) I thought it time to fling the 124 back in the system for a re-evaluation as rather a lot has happened there since it last got a look in:

...

Anyway, I've boxed the Garrard up, I declare 2016 the year of the TD-124!

Yup, a great looking little deck - the plinth is super-neat and looks like the deck must have been sold that way.

 

[Take5]

Tony, lovely looking set up.

I had one a few years ago and really liked it. I sold it too soon, to fund a Garrard 301 and that was a mistake I regret. I may have another 124 some day.

I like the look and style of the table that it sits on. Do you know who made it?

 

[Tony L]

Yup, a great looking little deck - the plinth is super-neat and looks like the deck must have been sold that way.

The plinth is a recent Stereo Lab one from Germany (link). Very much influenced by the original 1950s Ortofon plinth, but built from plywood rather than solid wood. It is very light weight but very nicely made. I've never tried the Thorens in a high mass plinth, though I understand they are quieter so housed. I just love the vintage aesthetics and the motor has plenty of room/air in there so doesn't get too hot. I figure if the TD-124 is running quietly in this context it would be pretty much silent in a high-mass slate or ply plinth. I'm in no rush to change it.

I like the look and style of the table that it sits on. Do you know who made it?

The table was from teh eBays, about £225 IIRC. There is something similar but not identical at Oak Furniture Land here (I hope they pay link affiliation!).

 

[Patrick Dixon]

I like my 124 Mk2 which is housed in a similar looking plinth although it's a close-fitting MDF one I bought from a guy in the US whose name escapes me ATM. I put some of those cone shaped adjustable legs on it, and it sits on a Hush platform so it's well isolated from external shocks.

I have serviced mine fitted a new belt and upgraded the motor mounts and idler wheel, and it's mechanically pretty quiet although not absolutely silent. It's also unmarked and looks great. I've run it with an SME 3009 S2 Imp with damper trough and a Decca C4 head, and now with a Mission 774 with a C4 cartridge, and it sounds great.

It doesn't have quite the punch of the 301 but it has a little more space and it's lovely to use. I'm feeding mine with a Nigel Speed Controller which helps extract a little more from the vinyl.

Mine seems to have a slightly kinked rubber mat which is a small annoyance. The over-platter seems flat but the mat isn't quite, so I might buy a new one sometime.

 

[audiogoose]

Here is a current pic of mine. Have had it for 10 years. Sounds sublime with SME V, Dynavector XX2 MkII. It has the grey cast platter, new Schopper bearing, and William Thakker belt.
I initially cleaned, lubed, and rebuilt the motor, replacing the brass bushings as well.
The 124 runs nearly silently now. I found that I had to clean rubber debris from the motor pulley several times over the first couple of years, as the belt "broke in". At first, it seemed a little noisy, but as I noted above, the more I used it, the quieter it got. As others have noted, the 124 runs slightly fast at turn-on, but gradually slows to a steady speed.

I have a had Linn LP12, VPI, and Clearaudio Master Reference tables in the past, and the 124 matches or beats every one of them for sheer enjoyment.

Jerry

 

[Tony L]

I've just spent a dull grey rainy afternoon stripping down and redoing my 124 motor. I've harboured some doubts for a while that I'd not done it as well as I could now with a bit more knowledge. I wasn't convinced I'd cleaned or recharged the oilite bushings anything like as well as I could. IIRC I was without an oven at the time so hadn't done the baking phase, I just stuck them in some very hot oil after cleaning them with thinners. I'd also seen this advertising video claiming a properly (i.e. expensively) rebuilt motor should take 50 seconds or so to spin down with no belt attached. Mine as-was took 30 seconds. I was curious to see if I could do better.

This time I did it pretty much as instructed on The Analogue Dept here but went my own way later. I heated them up in the oven at 250C a few times untll they had stopped oozing anything and to recharge them I'd read elsewhere of a trick of using a vacuum. I stuck them one by one completely immersed in oil to over their level into a syringe and pulled a vacuum by pulling the plunger with my thumb over the hole where the needle goes. They fizzed like a soft drink for a surprising while as the air and thinners etc escaped and the oil filled the holes. I did it as many times as necessary for no more bubbles to emerge in the oil. I'm now confident they are charged with my nice clean and absurdly expensive Schopper oil! The condition of the motor shaft is thankfully amazing, not the slightest hint of marking from the bushings.

After rebuilding and spending a bit of time adjusting the motor shell for quietest running the motor seems quiet and now takes 42 seconds to reach a stop. A 30%+ improvement on how it was. I suspect that is perfectly acceptable for an entirely stock motor with it's original bushings.

PS Nice looking 124/II AG!