The Tory leadership race- that’s quite a bestiary there.

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

I am not after 'compliments'.

I want this country to have respect internationally, to prosper and to offer an even better future to its citizens and the many that have and will come here to contribute.

Isn’t it ironic, then, that the UK’s reputation abroad has been trashed by the Tories, and that the existing and projected direction of travel offers a worse future for its citizens. And, the Tories have been the architects of policies which actively discriminate against, and discourage ‘the many who will come here to contribute’. It seems clear, from things like the ‘hostile environment’ that it was only freedom of movement which protected EU citizens from similar abuses.

 

[Brian]

In there like a shot...

Being part of a gang is useful for some.

 

[Brian]

You do not change the rules of any club by threatening to leave. The UK already had a special deal.
The 4 freedoms are all linked: it does not work if you cancel one of them: The point about freedom of movement is that if your country is not competitive at least your citizens can move elsewhere to get jobs.
Anyway who cares any more ? Bring it on and we will see the result soon enough.

People have always moved abroad for reasons of work. It was happening way before the EU project.

 

[drummerman]

Isn’t it ironic, then, that the UK’s reputation abroad has been trashed by the Tories, and that the existing and projected direction of travel offers a worse future for its citizens. And, the Tories have been the architects of policies which actively discriminate against, and discourage ‘the many who will come here to contribute’. It seems clear, from things like the ‘hostile environment’ that it was only freedom of movement which protected EU citizens from similar abuses.

No. It has been seriously dented by polititans across the house over the last three years!

Sorry to say but you (we, country) are a joke now.

The EU will fall apart even if Britain had not voted the way they did.

 

[stephen bennett]

People have always moved abroad for reasons of work. It was happening way before the EU project.

Yes, but that was restricted to the few who could afford health insurance or worked for companies who paid it for them. They’ll be fine post-Brexit.

It’s the rest of us that the leave vote has removed the opportunity to live in Europe from.

If you’re wealthy, like most of the prominent Brexiteers, your life opportunities and that of your children, remain. Lawson can still live in France, for example. I can’t afford to move back to Sweden. Those living in the EU on low incomes must have had an incredibly stressful three years with no end in sight.

And you wonder why some of us are angry? To be put in this position for no good reason at all.

Stephen

 

[Brian]

Is that a person who post their views rather strongly on forums such as these? If you’re trying to insult people here, I rather think you’re insulting yourself.

FWIW I post under my own name. My views here are the same as I’d argue in a cafe. I think you might also find that some of us are politically active in what many call ‘the real world. Many went to the remain demos, for example. Perhaps some of the leavers here were on the Brexit ones?

Stephen

I don't set out to insult people, stephen. If you take "hard-remainer" as an insult that's your problem, it's not posted as an insult, you must agree there are hard-leavers and hard-remainers who are intolerant of the opposite side of the issue, most other people being generally tolerant of each other. If you would give me an example of where I have insulted people, unprovoked, I'll look at it. I am also happy to modify how "strongly" I post my opinion if that bothers you as well. Most people here post their opinion and that is all I'm doing.

Bottom line on insults is the majority here are from hard-remainers and have been going on since the referendum. I never see any post from you picking up the regular culprits for those posts. Why is that?

 

[Stunsworth]

There is no such thing as a hard remainer. It’s a fictitious adjective thought up by the far right. If you’re a remainer you want to remain in the EU, that’s it. If you’re a leaver there’s a whole scale from soft to hard to position yourself on.

 

[stephen bennett]

No. It has been seriously dented by polititans across the house over the last three years!

Sorry to say but you (we, country) are a joke now.

The EU will fall apart even if Britain had not voted the way they did.

It’s the worst kind of leave supporter that feels it isn’t enough that the UK leaves the EU.

They want to bring the most successful peaceful economic and cultural collaboration of previously warring nations (with a wide range of languages and cultures) down with them as well.

Stephen

 

[wacko]

Actually Brexit has made it much more likely that no other country will be so stupid in future. The EU will remain intact.

 

[Rockmeister]

They want to bring the most successful peaceful economic and cultural collaboration of previously warring nations (with a wide range of languages and cultures) down with them as well.
I don't think they do do they rea'ly? I think that they were just persuaded that we could be ok on our own. And we might, in time, mightn't we? It's not what I want but this has been going so long that everyone is jumping at shadows now.I think the energy of the nation should be put into using the result to try to be better. A little of something positive?
I recall a few occasions when I was in a bit of a state because life had just screwed my plans and chucked them away, but after a while it was ok. Different but OK.

 

[maxflinn]

They will have to reform because if the UK leaves with no deal or a deal ... others will follow.

It's like a house of cards and me thinks the EU as we know it is near it's end.

I'm not sure about the EU reforming, but I agree that the UK won't be the last to leave, assuming it does leave in the near future.

I also agree that the EU itself is on borrowed time. Italy, Portugal, Spain and more could soon be getting very leave curious..

And if Israel, Saudi Arabia and the Neocons get their way and Iran is attacked, then everything will be speeded up by the millions upon millions of refugees fleeing the Middle East, much of which will be at war, to Europe, where far-right populists will have a field day.

 

[Nick_G]

I'm not sure about the EU reforming, but I agree that the UK won't be the last to leave, assuming it does leave in the near future.

I also agree that the EU itself is on borrowed time. Italy, Portugal, Spain and more could soon be getting very leave curious..

And if Israel, Saudi Arabia and the Neocons get their way and Iran is attacked, then everything will be speeded up by the millions upon millions of refugees fleeing the Middle East, much of which will be at war, to Europe, where far-right populists will have a field day.

Just as well that Neocon warmonger 'Crooked Hillary' didn't get in, eh Max?

 

[Brian]

There is no such thing as a hard remainer. It’s a fictitious adjective thought up by the far right. If you’re a remainer you want to remain in the EU, that’s it. If you’re a leaver there’s a whole scale from soft to hard to position yourself on.

It's nothing to do with fiction, nor the far right.

If not by using some term or other, how do you differentiate between those people who voted remain but understand you can't ignore the 52% so a compromise is needed, versus the uncompromising minority? Do hard-remainers consider such people to be racists/little englanders/thicko's...etc etc.

 

[stephen bennett]

They want to bring the most successful peaceful economic and cultural collaboration of previously warring nations (with a wide range of languages and cultures) down with them as well.
I don't think they do do they rea'ly?

I was quoting drummerman saying precisely that.

Others have, on here and offline, shown a real hatred of the EU as well.

Of course Trump and Putin also want to destroy the EU as it’s anathema to their ideologies and can stand up to both of them.

Stephen

 

[stephen bennett]

I'm not sure about the EU reforming, but I agree that the UK won't be the last to leave, assuming it does leave in the near future.

I also agree that the EU itself is on borrowed time. Italy, Portugal, Spain and more could soon be getting very leave curious..

And if Israel, Saudi Arabia and the Neocons get their way and Iran is attacked, then everything will be speeded up by the millions upon millions of refugees fleeing the Middle East, much of which will be at war, to Europe, where far-right populists will have a field day.

There is absolute no evidence of this.

Even the populist right-wing parties no longer speak about leaving the EU.

Stephen

 

[Brian]

Yes, but that was restricted to the few who could afford health insurance or worked for companies who paid it for them. They’ll be fine post-Brexit.

It’s the rest of us that the leave vote has removed the opportunity to live in Europe from.

If you’re wealthy, like most of the prominent Brexiteers, your life opportunities and that of your children, remain. Lawson can still live in France, for example. I can’t afford to move back to Sweden. Those living in the EU on low incomes must have had an incredibly stressful three years with no end in sight.

And you wonder why some of us are angry? To be put in this position for no good reason at all.

Stephen

So aim your anger at the people who set it all in motion and help to get rid of them. The tories did it to save their party. Whether it will save their party is in the balance and I obviously hope it doesn't, but that's why we are where we are.

A couple more points.
I'm sure many "average" UK citizens will be able to work overseas post-brexit.
I'm not seeing your point about prominent brexiteers mostly being wealthy. I believe most of the prominent remainers are also wealthy.

 

[kendo]

They want to bring the most successful peaceful economic and cultural collaboration of previously warring nations (with a wide range of languages and cultures) down with them as well.
I don't think they do do they rea'ly? I think that they were just persuaded that we could be ok on our own. And we might, in time, mightn't we? It's not what I want but this has been going so long that everyone is jumping at shadows now.I think the energy of the nation should be put into using the result to try to be better. A little of something positive?
I recall a few occasions when I was in a bit of a state because life had just screwed my plans and chucked them away, but after a while it was ok. Different but OK.

Poorer and not OK really, not in my lifetime.

 

[wyjsar]

There is no such thing as a hard remainer. It’s a fictitious adjective thought up by the far right. If you’re a remainer you want to remain in the EU, that’s it. If you’re a leaver there’s a whole scale from soft to hard to position yourself on.

Indeed Steve. Just to add (even though I think you've covered it):
Leave = leave the EU. Multiple options exist though leave supporters have failed to find a consensus. At the moment the most popular appears to be a very hard leave (no withdrawal deal with the EU in place, aka cliff edge in remain terms). Possibly considered as a "clean" Brexit as in a "clean break", no ties. Hard Brexit is no single market, no customs union; soft Brexit is closer to an EEA option. Other options lie in between. Those really interested can google the different forms. Bottom line - clear distinctions over the type of Brexit, leave voters unable to decide collectively what they want.
Remain = remain in the EU. No different remain options are in place. No concept of a "hard remain" or "soft remain". The term "hard remainer" has been dreamed up by leavers who want to portray the remain side as being as confused as they are (which is of course untrue).
The attempt to make an equivalence of terms "hard" and "soft" for both leave and remain is, to my mind, deeply odious.

 

[Romulus]

They want to bring the most successful peaceful economic and cultural collaboration of previously warring nations (with a wide range of languages and cultures) down with them as well.
I don't think they do do they rea'ly? I think that they were just persuaded that we could be ok on our own. And we might, in time, mightn't we? It's not what I want but this has been going so long that everyone is jumping at shadows now.I think the energy of the nation should be put into using the result to try to be better. A little of something positive?
I recall a few occasions when I was in a bit of a state because life had just screwed my plans and chucked them away, but after a while it was ok. Different but OK.

I think you are missing the point. Seriously to this date I have not heard anything from brexiteers (public or politicians) that give some optimistic advantages of Brexit, there are numerous people in the media who have asked this question but the answers are always very general, full of rhetoric and woeful of facts. No wonder there are a lot of people in the UK who are yet to be pursuaded, or comforted or inspired by Brexit. For me when Farage is talking about the return to life of commonwealth and old empire I just despair; this is suppose to be the main Brexiteer and its very difficult indeed with all the will in the world to be inspired or comforted or even reassured by this politician. Then you have Boris Johnson gunning to be prime minister of this country but his ideas about Brexit whether soft or hard are so general, full of rhetoric, he may fool the Tory party but I don't think he seriously has assured the general thinking person in the UK. Also I will not be surprised that he will lose the will to Brexit with no deal.

 

[wacko]

^^ 'will be able to work overseas post-brexit' is entirely different from having the legal right to live/work/retire anywhere in the EU.
In practise there will be many less Brits in Europe post-Brexit.