The musings (ramblings) of a Leica owner

[Gromit]

Spent the day having a play with this little beastie...

Keep it dark by Boxertrixter, on Flickr

Shame the weather's been so dull today, hopefully it'll improve over the weekend.

What has been good though is a fellow fishy has sent me a Chord Mojo to have a play with. Cracking little bit of kit, but obviously more for discussion in that dark, foreboding place known as the Audio Room (or whatever it's called).

 

[Yank]

Spent the day having a play with this little beastie...

Keep it dark by Boxertrixter, on Flickr

Shame the weather's been so dull today, hopefully it'll improve over the weekend.

What has been good though is a fellow fishy has sent me a Chord Mojo to have a play with. Cracking little bit of kit, but obviously more for discussion in that dark, foreboding place known as the Audio Room (or whatever it's called).

How do you get everything so clean?

Or is there a duster in the post-processing?

 

[Gromit]

How do you get everything so clean?

Or is there a duster in the post-processing?

This is in our music room at home so I don't allow anything to get dusty. Actually it's a north-facing extension on the house which doesn't get much sunlight - it's also fairly cool in here, even on a hot summer's day. It's good for the piano, and the woodwind instruments stored there.

 

[Lefty]

Struck lucky today though - chatting to one of my work colleagues (who also owns a Leica and is partially responsible for me getting one), he's going to drop a Summicron 50 f2 off at my place on his way to work tomorrow morning for me to have a play with over the weekend.

I await the results with bated breath!!

Lefty

 

[Gromit]

I await the results with bated breath!!

Lefty

I'll do my best.

 

[Yorkshireman]

I have had a variety of Leica bodies and glass, using them for pleasure and business, I share a lot of the OP comments about the love hate relationship with them I started on an M8.2 then M9, then went to the SL which i must say is superb very little negative to that camera.

I have enjoyed reading other peoples comments about using Leica cameras, look forward to reading more.

One of my favourite Leica lenses is the 24mm f/2.8 fairly cheap used and superb sharp imaged wide open.

 

[Gromit]

I have had a variety of Leica bodies and glass, using them for pleasure and business, I share a lot of the OP comments about the love hate relationship with them I started on an M8.2 then M9, then went to the SL which i must say is superb very little negative to that camera.

I have enjoyed reading other peoples comments about using Leica cameras, look forward to reading more.

One of my favourite Leica lenses is the 24mm f/2.8 fairly cheap used and superb sharp imaged wide open.

'Love/hate', whilst quite a strong description, does sum up very well my feeling towards mine. I only have the Leica body with 3 Voigtländer lenses and find using the kit a real joy; there's very little to frustrate, and clearly evidence that Leica got the whole thing right, right from the start. To use a musician's analogy, it's akin to having a go on a Bösendorfer grand piano - I'm not a great pianist but it sure feels great to play.

However the cost of the gear is so high relative to what else is out there - and as a system 1. It's not terribly versatile ie lens choice is limited, and 2. Low-light performance isn't that great either. 1 I can accept without complaint as using large lenses on an M just seems so out of place, and goes against the whole idea of a small, neat RF camera. 2 - it's not so bad, but both my FF Nikons blow it away.

Borrowing the Summicron is causing me a little 'kit anguish' in that I was expecting some magic, and whilst the lens is quite wonderful (and so goddang small!) I'm not entirely sure it's the way for me to go. That's not just the lens btw, but the whole Leica thing. It does win back favour in having just enough automation to make life a little easier though - and of course balances nicely with enough manual bits to make one feel involved.

 

[Yorkshireman]

I understand what your saying, for me the M cameras are very nearly perfect but lens prices, no diopter, no side hand grip, are the 3 big issues, thats why I went for the SL, image quality is superb, built in diopter, AF, focus peaking if using Leica or other manual lenses, superb viewfinder and ifo display, along with a good side hand grip profile. Along with the adapters for manual focus lenses, and some adapters for AF lenses, plus the L-mount allience has some very good lenses from Panasonic and Sigma.

I for one wont ever go back to an M camera again, the SL with manual focus lenses is just too good.

 

[miktec]

'Love/hate', whilst quite a strong description, does sum up very well my feeling towards mine. I only have the Leica body with 3 Voigtländer lenses and find using the kit a real joy; there's very little to frustrate, and clearly evidence that Leica got the whole thing right, right from the start. To use a musician's analogy, it's akin to having a go on a Bösendorfer grand piano - I'm not a great pianist but it sure feels great to play.

However the cost of the gear is so high relative to what else is out there - and as a system 1. It's not terribly versatile ie lens choice is limited, and 2. Low-light performance isn't that great either. 1 I can accept without complaint as using large lenses on an M just seems so out of place, and goes against the whole idea of a small, neat RF camera. 2 - it's not so bad, but both my FF Nikons blow it away.

Borrowing the Summicron is causing me a little 'kit anguish' in that I was expecting some magic, and whilst the lens is quite wonderful (and so goddang small!) I'm not entirely sure it's the way for me to go. That's not just the lens btw, but the whole Leica thing. It does win back favour in having just enough automation to make life a little easier though - and of course balances nicely with enough manual bits to make one feel involved.

At the moment I am pretty much disengaged with photography but couldn't resist a few comments to this fascinating thread

I have always managed to resist the very, very strong urge to buy a Leica digital body, allowing the hefty price tag to have its say.
What I have not done is resist the urge to try Leica glass on my M4/3 bodies - always with great pleasure and some, qualitatively speaking, impressive results.
I have a couple of Summicrons, including a 50mm similar to the one you've borrowed, and a 90mm (Canadian) Elmarit. I got them used a good while back and none of them cost very much (relatively) at that time. Prices seem to have taken off a lot since.

On M4/3, the Elmarit is by far my favourite. The other two have some annoying aspects which I think are down to the M4/3 crop factor - so I am curious what your findings might be using the 50mm with your Pen F (if you do that).

But by far the biggest dealbreaker for me (and the reason I rarely took them out) was that they are so damn heavy.
The main attraction of M4/3 (possibly the only one) is the clear size/weight advantage over FF cameras .... some of the Leica glass instantly negates a bit of that.

 

[Gromit]

At the moment I am pretty much disengaged with photography but couldn't resist a few comments to this fascinating thread

I have always managed to resist the very, very strong urge to buy a Leica digital body, allowing the hefty price tag to have its say.
What I have not done is resist the urge to try Leica glass on my M4/3 bodies - always with great pleasure and some, qualitatively speaking, impressive results.
I have a couple of Summicrons, including a 50mm similar to the one you've borrowed, and a 90mm (Canadian) Elmarit. I got them used a good while back and none of them cost very much (relatively) at that time. Prices seem to have taken off a lot since.

On M4/3, the Elmarit is by far my favourite. The other two have some annoying aspects which I think are down to the M4/3 crop factor - so I am curious what your findings might be using the 50mm with your Pen F (if you do that).

But by far the biggest dealbreaker for me (and the reason I rarely took them out) was that they are so damn heavy.
The main attraction of M4/3 (possibly the only one) is the clear size/weight advantage over FF cameras .... some of the Leica glass instantly negates a bit of that.

Funnily enough, I've had a brief play with the Summicron on my Pen F this afternoon and found it works really nicely. Combination of well-developed focus-peaking system and IBIS I think could yield some good results. Will try and get out over the weekend and put it to use. The Pen does put out the most gorgeous mono jpegs so I'm quite excited at the prospect.

After a bit of a downer yesterday with the 'Cron (my expectations of it were clearly too high) I took it to the local woods this morning and shot a few images. Weather was dull, but the light was fairly good owing to the trees not being in leaf yet. I've come home with a much more positive view, in fact I'm seriously impressed with it. The complete absence of fringing, and no distortion whatsoever (this is from the RAWs) is quite something. I took the Df along to act as a control but using the nifty fifty, whilst very good, isn't going to set off any optical fireworks.

 

[andrewd]

The previous version of the 50mm M summicron is widely reported to have significant focus shift issues. The focus is well calibrated to the rangefinder at f2.0, but once you stop down the calibration is out. You would need to use live view to get sharp photos which defeats the purpose of an expensive rangefinder camera. The issue is likely resolved on the latest APO-ASPH version of the lens which costs an eye watering £6400.

 

[SteveG]

Many years back I purchase a Contax G system, mainly due to the hype at the time about the quality of the lenses. While the lenses were indeed very good, I wouldn't say they were noticeably better than the higher end Pentax lenses (FA* etc.) I was using with my Pentax SLR at the time, plus all the lenses were a bit slower than I was used to. While the camera itself was the prettiest I've ever owned, a combination of the relatively poor handling and metering and the lack of any real advantage in quality from the lenses meant I didn't keep the system all that long (although I do regret that a little - partly due to the value that system would make if sold now, and partly due to just how lovely looking it was).

While I would like to (and probably will at some point) get at least a Leica lens to try, I do wonder if I'll end up finding the same thing i.e. that the lenses are indeed excellent, but not excellent enough to justify the cost or the other limitations of the system.

 

[Gromit]

The previous version of the 50mm M summicron is widely reported to have significant focus shift issues. The focus is well calibrated to the rangefinder at f2.0, but once you stop down the calibration is out. You would need to use live view to get sharp photos which defeats the purpose of an expensive rangefinder camera. The issue is likely resolved on the latest APO-ASPH version of the lens which costs an eye watering £6400.

I agree the price of the glass is quite horrific - of course there are plenty of retired dentists & lawyers around who can afford it but for humble semi-retired musos such as I, they're beyond even the most sensitive of radar.

You had me a little worried about the focus shift issue, so I've just been outside and rattled off a few shots at 2/4/5.6/8/11 and whilst there's the tiniest bit of shift, you have to zoom into way beyond 100% to detect even the slightest softening, and even then I'm not sure I could really see any. Target was 8' away. The Nokton (c/w the 'cron) is a bit softer at f2 but is bitingly sharp from f4 onwards. It doesn't render as nicely as the Leica glass though. Would be interesting to have a look at the new Voigtländer Apo-Lanthar 50-f2 as this is causing big waves in the Leica community at the moment (I like kit which does this). For around 800 quid, whilst still not cheap, it's a veritable bargain by comparison.

@SteveG makes a good point with 'I do wonder if I'll end up finding the same thing i.e. that the lenses are indeed excellent, but not excellent enough to justify the cost or the other limitations of the system'. For me, this is the rub - sure, the kit is lovely to use, just 'manual enough' to make the user feel involved, but does it give enough back in terms of performance? I have to be totally honest here, but I don't really think it does.

 

[SteveG]

Would be interesting to have a look at the new Voigtländer Apo-Lanthar 50-f2 as this is causing big waves in the Leica community at the moment (I like kit which does this). For around 800 quid, whilst still not cheap, it's a veritable bargain by comparison.

That's the sort of thing I struggle to get my head round i.e. £800 for a slow, standard lens. Having said that the Pentax 43mm F1.9 Limited isn't far off that at £649 - although there are cheaper "standard" lenses from Pentax as well - the £129 50mm F1.8 (which my son has) and the £359 FA 50mm f1.4 (which we don't have, although I do have the F1.7 version). The FA* 50mm F1.4 is over £1000 list price (and I also think that's crazy expensive), so perhaps it's because the last time I bought a standard lens (of which I have many, including a 50mm F1.2, across a variety of mounts) it was both in Hong Kong (where the stuff was about half the UK price) and a long time ago when stuff like an AF 50mm F1.7 or F1.4 wasn't that expensive.

 

[miktec]

For around 800 quid, whilst still not cheap, it's a veritable bargain by comparison.

If you're happy with used it looks like you can still get good condition older Summicrons for that price.

Mine cost about £500 and is mechanically and optically pristine with just the slightest signs of use .... but this was 8 years ago.

 

[andrewd]

While I would like to (and probably will at some point) get at least a Leica lens to try, I do wonder if I'll end up finding the same thing i.e. that the lenses are indeed excellent, but not excellent enough to justify the cost or the other limitations of the system.

That has been my experience for the Leica M lenses. They are nice but nowhere near nice enough to justify the massive prices. Even the used prices are crazy now. For a 50mm lens I use the Zeiss ZM planar, which can be bought new for £650. For 35mm I am planning to buy the Voigtlander Ultron. I previously owned the 35mm f2 Summicron ASPH but sold it because it just felt ridiculous to walk around with such an expensive lens.

The bargains for Leica lenses right now are the R lenses. Many of these have the same optical formula and build quality as the M lenses for a quarter of the price.

Nice article on the various 50mm options here:
https://mrleica.com/tag/zeiss-planar-50mm-vs-summicron/

 

[Gromit]

That has been my experience for the Leica M lenses. They are nice but nowhere near nice enough to justify the massive prices. Even the used prices are crazy now.

For 35mm I am planning to buy the Voigtlander Ultron.

Nice article on the various 50mm options here:
https://mrleica.com/tag/zeiss-planar-50mm-vs-summicron/

I'm a big fan of Matt Osborne's reviews/YouTube channel, finding him really informative (he knows his stuff), plus his work isn't too shabby either.

Can give a big thumbs up for the Ultron 35 - it's a cracking little lens. Sharp-as, tiny, a real gem.

 

[Joe P]

Gromit,

Great thread, and I've enjoyed reading about your experiences with Leica, especially so given that you're intimately familiar with Nikon. That's where I'm coming from. I also had an F3 for years, though I sold it to buy an FM3a about a decade ago to shed some weight. I'm also a huge fan of the Nikon Df. Cliff Patterson might have been the first fishie to get a Df (he was the first fishie to get every photographic thing), but I'm likely the second fishie. My Df has been in use since I bought it in December 2013.

I've been fascinated by Leicas for ages, particularly the M rangefinders, but I've never come across a film or digital body at a price I could afford or justify. Leica seems to be intent on making sure I never do, as the prices rise just more each year.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/57144...ntire-product-lineup-starting-april-1-no-joke

From photos I've seen online I think the top aspheric Leica lenses are the way to go if pockets are bottomless, but all are eye-wateringly expensive. Kudos to Leica for creating such optical masterpieces, but it's the shits that only the wealthy can afford them. (Well, I suppose I could afford a $10k 50mm f/2 prime if I really wanted one, but $10k for a 50mm is nuts.)

Since you've picked up a Df, you might want to try a couple of Voigtländer primes on it. The 20mm f/3.5 Color Skopar SL is tiny, utterly flare resistant and very good from f/5.6 on. The 28mm f/2.8 Color Skopar SL is really nice, too, as is the 40mm f/2 SL Ultron. Add a 105mm f/2.5 Nikkor and you have a nice set of portable primes that are knocking at the door of Leica build and optical quality for a lot less.

Joe

 

[-alan-]

Dont think I've picked up a 'real' camera in a couple of years at this stage - but very much enjoying the thread. (another F3 owner here Gromit btw, and equally dont think I could ever bring myself to sell it).

Reminds me of an advert for Arai motorcycle helmets several years ago where the line was 'The value of a thing is set by the desire for it'. Helps that they also make some of the very best helmets in the world.

Great line.
That's perhaps why I'm cr@p at haggling - the sellers must be able to smell the desperation..

 

[boneman]

People ramble about Leica endlessly.

My son started on a Voightlander Bessa and the Voightlander 35/f2.5 Skopar. I think the whole package cost $430 new, in the most amazing camera store in Bangkok.

The Voightlander 35/f2.5 is a true pancake lens. The original pancake was the Nikon Ais 50/f1.8. I had one until recently on an FM2N, just too noisy for me, but a neat and petite camera.

Leica do some very small lenses. I love the 28/f5.6 Summaron, 18mm body length and about 166g, a great walkabout lens. The 28/f5.6 Summaron does not make sense compared to the modern 28/f2.8, which is Leica's smallest modern lens and £300 cheaper.

If you want Leica, the 35/f2.5 performs much the same as the f2, save for the loss of half a stop, and is cheaper. The Zeiss 35 and 50 f2 Biogon are much cheaper and optically faultless, but they just don't feel the same.

For sharpness and value, I don't think anything beats the standard Leica 50/f2. That said, I paid less for my 50 Rigid and it's perhaps the best lens they ever made.
https://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/50mm-f2-dr.htm
This the 1957 50/f2 on an M10

Lovely shot. Is this Hainault Forest?