The mains cable poll

[darrylfunk]

i have a tellerium q incon and it doesn't sound any better than my regular leads.

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[onlyconnect]

Trouble is, we hear via our brains, which do incredibly clever stuff to help us make sense of the world and even enjoy the music.

If our brain knows that a different cable is in use, we may hear differences. That is just how it is.

I am convinced that blind or better still double-blind testing is the only viable way to test this kind of claim.

By the way, in the Belt days a friend heard "a clear difference" when I inserted a triangle of paper under one of the four legs of his turntable.

He was telling the truth, but I don't believe it was because of the triangle of paper.

Though on the face of it, even that is more likely to change the sound than replacing the mains cable, presuming you replace one working cable with another.

A non-working mains cable will deliver incredible inky blacks but weak dynamics.

Tim

 

[Joe P]

Steven,

Your poll is committing one of the cardinal sins of bad survey design. It's probing for two different things in one question — whether experimenters have heard a difference (which probes about perception) and whether they think they ought to have heard a difference (which probes about belief).

I would start with the first question and provide a series of options from significant difference to no difference.

I'm sure you've seen surveys which start with a statement, which is then followed by a series of options such as strongly agree, agree, uncertain, disagree, strongly disagree. That's the model to follow.

Joe

 

[whatsnext]

Question for mains cable belivers.

If your favourite enhancing mains cable has a 1m cable length then get 0.5m and 2.0m versions. Does the first have half the benefit and the second twice as much

 

[Mike Reed]

I don't get it. Interconnect comparisons, yes, as you don't have to turn the kit off. With valved amp's, it's a no-no to turn off, turn on, turn off, etc. With s/s amp's, the stabilisation time between changes doesn't really lend itself to A-B testing.

I suppose that over a period of time and many sessions simply to obviate extraneous factors, one can form an accurate opinion on mains cables (or anything). If you're plugging them into the domestic mains, however, other variations are likely to influence the result.

I'm not a doubter, as I believe differences manifest themselves in some systems more than others, and so many people can't be wrong about the Naim cable, I guess. With hard-wired fiddly R.A. or captive cables throughout, experimentation is not an option for me, but an interesting thread nonetheless.

 

[Steven Toy]

The first question reads a bit weird: 'Yes and they made no difference and I therefore believe that they make no difference as expected' isn't actually a proper sentence; it sounds like something Vicky Pollard would say.

How about:

'Yes and they made no difference' to replace questions 1 and 2?

Because you have altered the intended meaning. I am asking what conclusions people draw based on what they hear. That is of more interest than a straight binary poll.

@Joe H: Are you open-minded?

Yes

No

is too loaded.

@Joe P: on a scale of 1 to 5, how open-minded would you say you were?

1) Not at all. I know there is no difference with absolute certainty.

2) I am fairly certain there is no difference and all my experience to date concurs with this.

3) I am not certain at all but my experience so far suggests there is no difference.

4) I am fairly certain I have heard differences but I accept that without proper abx testing it is at least theoretically possible that imagined them.

5) I am absolutely certain that I have heard differences.

Is that any better? The problem I would have is that I would fall betwen 4 and 5. Perhaps I should provide 6 choices.

 

[ultrawomble]

So what is your exact stance on this Ultrawomble?

Is it

a) No but I know for certain that changing a mains cable could not possibly make a difference

or

b) Changing a mains cable can make a difference but only if the equipment powered via it is not designed properly

?

Your position is either one or the other as the two are mutually exclusive and yet oddly, both are frequently expressed by the same individuals. Perhaps I should have included b) above in one of the poll choices.

Steven, my stance is that mains cables do not make a difference. No manufacturer of aftermarket mains cables presents any evidence that the quality of the signal at the speaker terminals is in any way influenced by the quality of an adequate mains cable.

If people believe that their equipment is improved by using a fancy cable then I can only surmise that they believe that there is some deficiency in the power supply that needs to be cured.

 

[arthur]

I'm all for a proper scientific approach and a bit worried about Steve ever since I read that news report in the Daily Mail about some bloke killing his girlfriend and eating her head. Mains cables are only one step away as far as I'm concerned.

Ash

A good laugh is needed on some of these threads. Cheers.

 

[Tigerjones]

What about option 5 - Because my life isn't so sad, dull and empty I couldn't really give two shits if mains cable make any difference and I'm bright enough to realise they in no way shape or form change my enjoyment of music.

 

[Steven Toy]

If people believe that their equipment is improved by using a fancy cable then I can only surmise that they believe that there is some deficiency in the power supply that needs to be cured.

Then you would be wrong for this is not what I believe.

 

[Steven Toy]

#48/49 - ridicule and thread diarrhoea pours forth. It had to at some point. A GSOH is not at the expense of those participating.

 

[ultrawomble]

Then you would be wrong for this is not what I believe.

Au contraire. I cannot be wrong because I used the word believe.

 

[Dik Dolan]

Best laugh I had recently was hearing that Steve Jobs preferred Vinyl at home.
He might of said "Mp3; Good enough for you"


Back on topic. I tried a couple of pairs of Tacima leads and preferred my standard ones and this after I had bought them, so negative expectation bias I s'spose...

 

[Steven Toy]

Au contraire. I cannot be wrong because I used the word believe.

Your belief is wrong for I do not believe what you believe that I believe.

 

[ultrawomble]

Your belief is wrong for I do not believe what you believe that I believe.

For one with so much belief you have very little faith.

 

[sq225917]

SQ, the purpose of the poll was not to seek any proof.

I acknowledge that you used single inverted commas around the word.

Yeh, but you can ask people their opinion all day long, opinions are like arseholes, they are meaningless. What you want to find out with absolute certainty is 'if' power cables can make any difference or not. Then we can either find ones that work best or stop wasting money on the pointless pursuit of improvements that cannot possibly exist.

I'd like to know either way.

Nothing else matters, no one from either side will jump ships based on what other people 'think' they might or might not hear.

I happen to think that reduction in impedance of earthing due to swapping cables might be able to render very small differences in some circumstances. But that's it, fancy geometry, materials and all that crap makes no difference, same for decoupled pins or any cable damping or any of that bollocks. All that counts is good stout connections and cross sectional area.

 

[Nic P]

Nic P

How do you come to that conclusion? IF there is a large silent majority believing mains cables make a difference why isn't it reflected in sales (allowing for salesman punt, and curiosity of recently reviewed products)
I believe all sorts but try to support those beliefs

I meant that there was a large "silent majority" who do not take an active part in PFM cable threads (hence the word "silent").

Nic P

 

[Rasher]

Yes, I too think the first question illustrates too much bias, and what it reads is;
"Yes and they made no difference and I therefore believe that they make no difference as I had already made my mind up anyway and therefore my opinion is worthless".

Also the No Difference vote is cast over three results, so the No vote is diluted.

I still find it amazing that someone can pay £500 for a mains lead and then desperately try to find that it's done anything at all - after buying it!

Also it means nothing without consideration to;
a) The basic quality of lead it replaces
b) The system in question
c) The mains and what else is on it

 

[jimi]

i chat regularly to someone who works for rega (not mr darwin or mr bateman ) as i see him at gigs in essex and he says that the mains leads are just better in component quality terms but don't sound any different.

Never tried a standard Rega mains lead my comparison was with standard Naim & Densen leads, but on my amps the Rega aftermarket cable works for me.

 

[Joe P]

Steven,

Is that any better? The problem I would have is that I would fall betwen 4 and 5. Perhaps I should provide 6 choices.

The issue isn't the number of options. It's that you're probing for two different things in the same question — perception and belief.

Not that it really matters, since all these cable threads go awry anyway, but if you want to survey pfm about mains cables differences design a poll question that probes for that.

Joe