Salamander
pfm Member
You've hit the nail on the head, but isn't that why many go to shows for, to see what can be achieved.
The best audio system on earth?
- Thread starter karlsushi
- Start date
Maybe I’m too pessimistic, or maybe I’ve lost my enthusiasm for hifi over the years but I’m yet to be convinced about how good high end hifi (best systems in the world) earn these accolades. I’ve heard maybe a hundred..hundreds of 50k, 100k, 300k 500k+ systems and I can’t recall any of them standing out for any significant reason.
Some of these systems seem to start out with ‘we’ve got a million quid’ let’s build to that rather than just doing what’s required. Does fancy casework etc make any difference?
I really like simple looking stuff, for example, Innuos gear or the old Linn LK boxes.
The whole let’s build a really difficult to drive speaker & then we can charge for for an over spec amp etc. Turns me icy cold.
I look at Tony’s system(s) they are not really my thing but they obviously work exactly for him; would take that over any of these under sets ups.
I really like simple looking stuff, for example, Innuos gear or the old Linn LK boxes.
The whole let’s build a really difficult to drive speaker & then we can charge for for an over spec amp etc. Turns me icy cold.
I look at Tony’s system(s) they are not really my thing but they obviously work exactly for him; would take that over any of these under sets ups.
irb
pfm Member
Well, if this obscenely expensive system sounded good, maybe it's worth dwelling on the component which in any system will have a larger measurable influence on the sound than any other, i.e. the speakers. For one thing, they use Purifi mid/bass drivers, which are state of the art drivers, developed using large quantities of real engineering.
Another key design choice for the speakers is the use of Krion cabinets. Krion is a mineral loaded resin material, a.k.a. solid surface, normally used for kitchen worktops.
The choice of such heavy materials is not new - the Celestion Kingston, for example, flipped that company's previous approach to cabinets on its head, when it abandoned the light but stiff aerolam aluminium honeycomb it had used in the SL600 and 700, and put the same drivers in a heavy mineral-loaded resin box. That was in 1995. Light vs heavy cabinets is an interesting debate, but not new.
Much as the speakers interest me, though, some of the blurb produced by the manufacturer, Kroma Aterlier, troubles me. Their website says this, prominently: "Not a single piece of metal is used in the manufacturing of the cabinet - not one metal screw is used: neither in the chassis, nor in the filter, not even the fastening of the drivers."
I don't get why this is supposed to be a good thing. Also, they must be aware, surely, that the actual speaker drivers are full of metal. The basket is metal, the magnet is metal, and the voice coil is metal. (Edit: and the woofer's cone is metal!) I'm pretty sure the crossover filters contain a lot of metal too - I've never seen a metal-free inductor, or metal-free hook up wire or even a metal free crossover capacitor. So I'm not sure what the point of the blurb about avoiding metal is.
Anyway, at least the speakers use some cutting edge engineering, and some interesting engineering decisions - although its depressing that they have to cost so much, and that the manufacturer seems to want to market them by highlighting such peripheral stuff.
(Edit: it's actually the website of Boyer, the distributor, that has the quote about non-metal cabinets, but I assume the quote itself came from Kroma Atelier.)
Another key design choice for the speakers is the use of Krion cabinets. Krion is a mineral loaded resin material, a.k.a. solid surface, normally used for kitchen worktops.
The choice of such heavy materials is not new - the Celestion Kingston, for example, flipped that company's previous approach to cabinets on its head, when it abandoned the light but stiff aerolam aluminium honeycomb it had used in the SL600 and 700, and put the same drivers in a heavy mineral-loaded resin box. That was in 1995. Light vs heavy cabinets is an interesting debate, but not new.
Much as the speakers interest me, though, some of the blurb produced by the manufacturer, Kroma Aterlier, troubles me. Their website says this, prominently: "Not a single piece of metal is used in the manufacturing of the cabinet - not one metal screw is used: neither in the chassis, nor in the filter, not even the fastening of the drivers."
I don't get why this is supposed to be a good thing. Also, they must be aware, surely, that the actual speaker drivers are full of metal. The basket is metal, the magnet is metal, and the voice coil is metal. (Edit: and the woofer's cone is metal!) I'm pretty sure the crossover filters contain a lot of metal too - I've never seen a metal-free inductor, or metal-free hook up wire or even a metal free crossover capacitor. So I'm not sure what the point of the blurb about avoiding metal is.
Anyway, at least the speakers use some cutting edge engineering, and some interesting engineering decisions - although its depressing that they have to cost so much, and that the manufacturer seems to want to market them by highlighting such peripheral stuff.
(Edit: it's actually the website of Boyer, the distributor, that has the quote about non-metal cabinets, but I assume the quote itself came from Kroma Atelier.)
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paulfromcamden
Baffled
I won't be buying one. But blimey! THAT'S a cable!
Yes, the null hypothesis does apply. If there is a witnessed effect, witness it. Reliably. Demonstrably. Not just "God spoke to me therefore He exists".
I refer you to God speaking to me, therefore He exists.
You do need to show it, demonstrably.
Scientific philosophy is well grounded. Theories are already pretty well established and peer reviewed, and generally held to be true. Theories fall. Sure. That's called progress. But if you want to pull down a theory, you have to work pretty hard.
re: "We put men on the moon, we design and build microscopic circuits that outperform any one person's rational comprehension, but we understand how they work according to the laws of physics. Done. Peer reviewed papers accept it, hugely complex as it is."
Far from irrelevant. Electronics is far from being mysterious to those that understand it. Who outside hifi attempts to ascribe hitherto-unexamined properties to simple electrical cables? This is mature, well understood science that spans every industry across the whole world. But mains cables on hifi (only hifi mind) are special. Oh really? Well, if they are, show it.
So demonstrate that this happens over and above a control sample of a competent kettle lead. This is very, very easy science.- Why have none of the cable manufacturers demonstrated this? I know they haven't, because i've asked for it over and over again. I'll accept anything, if it is reliably demonstarted.
Indeed not.
The placebo effect is one of the tests applied to how reliable are your observations and measurements. It is central to any of this. This is why double blind placebo testing is so central to pharma development, because they acknowledge the faith healing effect.
Because it's foo. Because large numbers of women will swallow any old marketing crap in the pursuit of thinking that they are making themselves more beautiful, and large numbers of men will swallow any old marketing crap in the pursuit of thinking that they have got a better gadget.
For oligo-minerals and micellar complexes, substitute metal free speaker cabinets, or metal free amplifier casings (thank you NVA) or power cables as thick as your wrist. Or lighter handlebar tape on bikes, or 200m dive capability on a watch that goes no further than the shower.
We swallow the foo, to a greater or lesser extent. But the Emperor's new clothes are absolutely the finest in the land and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise.
I wonder how anyone else can hear exactly what I hear.
They can be in the same room listening to the same equipment, but not with my ears (i.e. outer fleshy part, inner ear, nerves transmitting the impulses, part of the brain receiving the impulses, my brains interpretation of the information received).
I’m not aware of any equipment that could replicate this, so I cannot prove to someone else that ‘x’ sounds different to me. Asking for proof is meaningless in this situation.
For the same reason, it is pointless for me to try to convince someone else that ‘x’ sounds different. All I can do is state my experience and leave it at that.
They can be in the same room listening to the same equipment, but not with my ears (i.e. outer fleshy part, inner ear, nerves transmitting the impulses, part of the brain receiving the impulses, my brains interpretation of the information received).
I’m not aware of any equipment that could replicate this, so I cannot prove to someone else that ‘x’ sounds different to me. Asking for proof is meaningless in this situation.
For the same reason, it is pointless for me to try to convince someone else that ‘x’ sounds different. All I can do is state my experience and leave it at that.
adamdea
You are not a sound quality evaluation device
Oh. the idea that "everything matters" . It doesn't apply to certain areas of engineering which include in particular digital signal channels. It also doesn't apply to information below the threshold at which it can be detected. Sorry -I thought that was obvious. Can you see why that might be different to the question of whether you can make a bicycle faster?
Even allowing for that I think it would be news to the serious engineers around these parts that the way to specify a product is to throw equal
amounts of resources into every single component rather than identifying the required specification for each and establishing which parts are critical.
cf “an engineer can do for a dollar what any fool can do for two”.
Try asking someone who designs eg medical imaging equipment, radio telescopes or seismographs whether they have considered upgrading their power cables or using rhodium plated plugs. or getting a linear psu for the switch on their network.
Anyway we used to have an F1 engineer around these parts @F1eng whose contributions I always found illuminating. I think he would be surprised to hear how you imagine F1 cars are designed.
adamdea
You are not a sound quality evaluation device
I am surprised how little attention has been focussed on the good news side of this story. Assuming this is the best sounding system in the world (!) then it seems that the best sounding system in the world can be acquired for £64k plus a little bit. -certainly under 70k.
les24preludes
pfm Member
Cables are an easy sell to audiophiles who don't know how to open up an amp or source or speaker and change parts, which is where the real differences lie.
Once they have the main components - the source, amp and speakers - they still have the yearning for making their system sound even better so they spend money on cables because without electronics skills they have no other option apart from rolling tubes.
The differences can be real - cables matter - but are still tiny compared with upgrading or redesigning the actual electronics that are doing the heavy lifting.
Fourlegs
Trade: WAVE High Fidelity digital cables
This morning a friend came round to drink coffee, chew the fat and generally put the world to rights. As he is a fellow enthusiast (and a PFM member) we naturally listened to some music and as is my habit I put him to work to see which bit of my latest kit he preferred. Except this time I played the same track twice and all I changed was the software app used on the server and player (renderer). And because this could be changed from my phone he had no idea which was being played. All he had to do was listen, let me change the apps and then listen again.
I did not tell my friend but the first time I used MinimServer on the server and MPD on the player. The second time I used LMS (Logitech Media Server) on the server and Squeezelite on the player.
About 15 seconds into the second version he looked at me and did an ‘oh, wow’ sort of thing and said the difference was the same as he might expect with different speakers or other significant kit change. His unprompted description of what he was hearing was exactly the same as what I was hearing.
And yet I am pretty sure that if I had proposed on here that such a change of sound quality might be possible from a simple change of playback app on the server and player (renderer) that there would have been a stampede of experts to explain why it was not possible and I must be deluding myself. After all no digital signal was changed or tampered with, both were the same ‘bit perfect’ digital signals with no processing and no digital volume control (ie both played at 100%).
Sometimes the best way to demonstrate what we are hearing is the play music on our systems and see if there is a difference rather than wasting time on constructing long and complicated theoretical arguments as to why it is not possible for there to have been any changes.
I did not tell my friend but the first time I used MinimServer on the server and MPD on the player. The second time I used LMS (Logitech Media Server) on the server and Squeezelite on the player.
About 15 seconds into the second version he looked at me and did an ‘oh, wow’ sort of thing and said the difference was the same as he might expect with different speakers or other significant kit change. His unprompted description of what he was hearing was exactly the same as what I was hearing.
And yet I am pretty sure that if I had proposed on here that such a change of sound quality might be possible from a simple change of playback app on the server and player (renderer) that there would have been a stampede of experts to explain why it was not possible and I must be deluding myself. After all no digital signal was changed or tampered with, both were the same ‘bit perfect’ digital signals with no processing and no digital volume control (ie both played at 100%).
Sometimes the best way to demonstrate what we are hearing is the play music on our systems and see if there is a difference rather than wasting time on constructing long and complicated theoretical arguments as to why it is not possible for there to have been any changes.
TheFlash
Reiki Audio
This.
Mind you, it would appear that the attraction of theorising and sometimes getting quite cross is stronger than that of the listened experience. And one can do it from the comfort of one’s own home.
TheFlash
Reiki Audio
On the topic raised in the opening post, I can’t agree with the assertion that everything makes a difference, for reasons set out by others. What I do agree with though is that the system as a whole sounded fabulous. Working out which bit contributed what to the overall sound would require extensive comparative testing and my guess is that no one on this thread is going to experience that.
In the absence of same, assertions that everything makes a difference and counter-assertions that certain bits (notably cables) don’t/can’t/won’t should be given equal credibility. The scientific process demands theory (hypothesis) and practice (experimentation) and it wouldn’t be a terrible idea if we applied the same to our common interest of hifi. Huffing and puffing from the sofa is a poor substitute.
In the absence of same, assertions that everything makes a difference and counter-assertions that certain bits (notably cables) don’t/can’t/won’t should be given equal credibility. The scientific process demands theory (hypothesis) and practice (experimentation) and it wouldn’t be a terrible idea if we applied the same to our common interest of hifi. Huffing and puffing from the sofa is a poor substitute.
As I said in another thread regarding vibration isolation, Frank, who I have known outside the forum, for may years does not post here anymore.
In terms of F1 car development for performance we use simulations to weight any development areas and assess new ideas, so all developments are targeted to give us the best performance, within the rules and the time available.
Having said that, an important target is to get below the weight limit, and so designers need to be aware of the importance of component mass that they are designing, and so this is tracked globally, with all designers aiming to minimise component mass within the limits of Finite Element prediction capability, function required, impact on aero etc.
I.e. everything is prioritized based on performance and function, within the rules and the time available.
TheFlash
Reiki Audio
Seriously? Have you visited their website and looked at the physical structure of these devices with obsessive separation of housing etc? Or are you asserting that the DAC chip itself is the key determinant of sound quality?
Absolutely, went on Sunday and just wow, the Boyer room was just awesome. I would say that’s the best Hi-fi system I have ever heard. I have absolutely no idea of what the system was or how much it costs because I didn’t bother to find out, it was irrelevant to me due to the fact I will most likely never have the opportunity to own it.
onlyconnect
pfm Member
I am trying to make sense of this statement. You have constructed a non-blind sound comparison which you claim was perfectly set up to demonstrate something, that you have not specified, and have also constructed imaginary people who are wasting time on "theoretical arguments" and have proved to your satisfaction that the imaginary people with the time-wasting arguments were wrong? Well done!
That is the Level 4 DC cable. Going to need four to power the DAC and Server.I won't be buying one. But blimey! THAT'S a cable!