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The best audio system on earth?

stevec67 said:
I bet that made all the difference.
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Everything will make a difference in a system like the Boyer system, or any good system for that matter. Its the same as the Sir David Brailsford School of "marginal gains" and the 1% factor...

Example for a bicycle:
The whole principle came from the idea that if you broke down everything you could think of that goes into riding a bike, and then improved it by 1%, you will get a significant increase when you put them all together"

This is exactly the same principle used in "some" High-end Audio systems, also for each piece of electronics, even down to a resistor or a capacitor, and its not magic or Foo...
 
GT said:
Everything will make a difference in a system like the Boyer system, or any good system for that matter. Its the same as the Sir David Brailsford School of "marginal gains" and the 1% factor...

Example for a bicycle:
The whole principle came from the idea that if you broke down everything you could think of that goes into riding a bike, and then improved it by 1%, you will get a significant increase when you put them all together"

This is exactly the same principle used in "some" High-end Audio systems, also for each piece of electronics, even down to a resistor or a capacitor, and its not magic or Foo...
Click to expand...
Not everything *will* make a difference. Whether you use imperial or metric fasteners to hold down the transformer won't make a difference. Some things will make a difference. Not every difference will have an effect. However, like our bicycle racing example, we might be concentrating on paint jobs rather than mechanical components.

This does of course bring up a complex question; if the rider *thinks* that the fancy paint job makes his bike faster, then this will almost certainly contribute to his belief that he has the best bike for the job, and be a 0.1% contribution to his marginal gains. On that basis, given that hifi appreciation is about perceived subjective improvements, belief plays a big part. If a hifi owner believes that cable supports and shakri stones improve his system, then for him they do, becaise it's about his belief and not the engineering. Again this is like cycling. Until recently TdF racers used to have to get changed after races in the back of cars, in sheds and so on. Now they have proper changing rooms on the bus, showers and comfortable seats to sit in. It's a marginal gain. It makes no difference at all to the bike, but it helps the rider no end. He feels better, so it makes a difference.

Oh, and this *does* work for foo. If I genuinely believe that my packets of fairy dust on my cables improve the system, then for me they do and it's real. It's as real as it needs to be. In that it's like any belief system. Christians believe that their god gives them strength and support, so they feel stronger. I'm an atheist, I'm on my own. So when the chips are down, one of us takes comfort from a diety, he can do it because God's on his side but I'm out there in the wind. So who's the mug now?
 
I’d like to go to a ‘David and Goliath’ audio show if it was ever possible. Where you had pairs of matched rooms architecturally, or two systems in one room,(though some would say you can’t make a proper comparison of two pairs of speakers next to each other) one modest system passionately put together, and an all singing dealer system. This would obviously never happen 🙃
 
stevec67 said:
Christians believe that their god gives them strength and support, so they feel stronger. I'm an atheist, I'm on my own. So when the chips are down, one of us takes comfort from a diety, he can do it because God's on his side but I'm out there in the wind. So who's the mug now?
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On the other hand no sleepless nights worrying about whether you'll end up downstairs with a red hot poker up your jacksie for all eternity.

Swings and roundabouts.
 
stevec67 said:
Not everything *will* make a difference. Whether you use imperial or metric fasteners to hold down the transformer won't make a difference. Some things will make a difference. Not every difference will have an effect. However, like our bicycle racing example, we might be concentrating on paint jobs rather than mechanical components.

This does of course bring up a complex question; if the rider *thinks* that the fancy paint job makes his bike faster, then this will almost certainly contribute to his belief that he has the best bike for the job, and be a 0.1% contribution to his marginal gains. On that basis, given that hifi appreciation is about perceived subjective improvements, belief plays a big part. If a hifi owner believes that cable supports and shakri stones improve his system, then for him they do, becaise it's about his belief and not the engineering. Again this is like cycling. Until recently TdF racers used to have to get changed after races in the back of cars, in sheds and so on. Now they have proper changing rooms on the bus, showers and comfortable seats to sit in. It's a marginal gain. It makes no difference at all to the bike, but it helps the rider no end. He feels better, so it makes a difference.

Oh, and this *does* work for foo. If I genuinely believe that my packets of fairy dust on my cables improve the system, then for me they do and it's real. It's as real as it needs to be. In that it's like any belief system. Christians believe that their god gives them strength and support, so they feel stronger. I'm an atheist, I'm on my own. So when the chips are down, one of us takes comfort from a diety, he can do it because God's on his side but I'm out there in the wind. So who's the mug now?
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I have no doubt the mind plays tricks. With the only issue here being that no-one listening to the Boyer Room system at the weekend (other than the representatives demonstrating the system themselves), actually owned it.

More to the point, 99.9% of the people that heard it, have no chance of ever owning it.

To some people, that encourages them to 'not like it' on principle.

I would loved to have listened to all the high-end systems at the show and gone home thinking my own system was still better. Sadly, far from the case. That said, there were still plenty of systems around that day that are much (much) more expensive than mine, that made me feel a whole lot better about what I have at home.
 
karlsushi said:
I have no doubt the mind plays tricks. With the only issue here being that no-one listening to the Boyer Room system at the weekend (other than the representatives demonstrating the system themselves), actually owned it.
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That doesn't matter. Expectation still counts. I'm very sure that the system was a damn fine hifi. What made it so is debatable.
karlsushi said:
More to the point, 99.9% of the people that heard it, have no chance of ever owning it.

To some people, that encourages them to 'not like it' on principle.
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And for others the very fact that it is eye wateringly expensive makes it desirable.
 
mikeyb said:
How did the Bower system sound with hard rock or death metal?

It's always shit music in these videos that seem to be the easiest to make sound decent 🤢
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Definitely the only frustration I had about the room. The exhibitors kept a very tight grip on music selections!

The only time I heard someone actually manage to persuade them to play a member of the public's choice, it was a classical piece, the Danse Macabre by Saint-Saëns. A fine recording of it granted, but the system managed to represent the whole orchestra with more realism and scale than I have ever heard any system manage.

No hard rock or death metal while I was in there, but if a system can play a full orchestra with such realism and scale, then its doing pretty well in my book.

The only other hint was the way the system portrayed percussion on other selections, for example this one:

Words like 'slam' and 'dynamics' don't do it justice really, it was simply a drumkit in the room.

To my ears, the system sounded unflappable.

Would have loved to hear some Sabbath or something on it though.
 
stevec67 said:
Not everything *will* make a difference. Whether you use imperial or metric fasteners to hold down the transformer won't make a difference. Some things will make a difference. Not every difference will have an effect. However, like our bicycle racing example, we might be concentrating on paint jobs rather than mechanical components.

This does of course bring up a complex question; if the rider *thinks* that the fancy paint job makes his bike faster, then this will almost certainly contribute to his belief that he has the best bike for the job, and be a 0.1% contribution to his marginal gains. On that basis, given that hifi appreciation is about perceived subjective improvements, belief plays a big part. If a hifi owner believes that cable supports and shakri stones improve his system, then for him they do, becaise it's about his belief and not the engineering. Again this is like cycling. Until recently TdF racers used to have to get changed after races in the back of cars, in sheds and so on. Now they have proper changing rooms on the bus, showers and comfortable seats to sit in. It's a marginal gain. It makes no difference at all to the bike, but it helps the rider no end. He feels better, so it makes a difference.

Oh, and this *does* work for foo. If I genuinely believe that my packets of fairy dust on my cables improve the system, then for me they do and it's real. It's as real as it needs to be. In that it's like any belief system. Christians believe that their god gives them strength and support, so they feel stronger. I'm an atheist, I'm on my own. So when the chips are down, one of us takes comfort from a diety, he can do it because God's on his side but I'm out there in the wind. So who's the mug now?
Click to expand...
I think you make an excellent point. My system sounds better when I'm in a good mood. As has been said before, psycho-acoustics (is this the right term?) play a large part in out perception of sound quality.

Oh, on the subject of bikes, fancy paint jobs make bikes slower because they make them heavier. This will have both a direct effect on performance and a secondary effect via the rider's perception that his plain varnished carbon bike is faster.

A cynic would say that TdF riders started to hide away in buses and caravans so that they could get away with taking advantage of the real performance boost (about 10%) provided by EPO (LA and US Postal etc.!).
 
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karlsushi said:
Very true. But certainly not for me.

The main thought I have had since hearing it, is that the challenge for audio going forwards, is to try and replicate that quality of reproduction, but on a terrestrial budget.
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I've thought that for the last 20 years, and achieved it. Stacked pairs of ESL 57s and an EL34 valve amp will put Neil Young in the room with you. Shut your eyes and he's sitting on a stool just to the left of the fireplace. No fancy cables, no foo, but top quality components.

The elephant in the room that none of us address is that the room makes or breaks the system. Also that the room changes. Play your hifi with one person in the room, fill the room with people at a party and listen again. It will sound different. Why? Because you have now filled the room with living, breathing bass traps and it won't sound the same because of the laws of physics. This is real, and it's neasurable, and we all choose to ignore it (unless we have DSP).
 
stevec67 said:
I've thought that for the last 20 years, and achieved it. Stacked pairs of ESL 57s and an EL34 valve amp will put Neil Young in the room with you. Shut your eyes and he's sitting on a stool just to the left of the fireplace. No fancy cables, no foo, but top quality components.
Click to expand...
if I had that Neil Young in my room, I'd give him a good talking to.
 
Most impressive sounding system I've ever heard was sat plonked on cloth covered tables and with normal size (albeit probably not cheap) speaker cables strewn across the floor. An Audio Note one at the NW audio show a few years ago. Think it's was their mid-range components too. No fuss, all very un-bling, and a sort of inverted contrast to some of the other more uber 'statement' type set ups of varying sound impressions. Found it quite eye opening.

At the same show I asked for a challenging (but favourite) track to be played on a system, and it all fell to pieces. Again, eye opening.
 
adamdea said:
if I had that Neil Young in my room, I'd give him a good talking to.
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Like the old Jack Dee joke. "Hifi enthusiasts. They tell you that their systems are better because "It's like having the band in the room with you". Well, I don't know about you, but I'm not sure about that. I mean, I like The Pogues, but I don't want Shane McGowan p1ssing behind my sofa".
 
GT said:
Everything will make a difference in a system like the Boyer system, or any good system for that matter. Its the same as the Sir David Brailsford School of "marginal gains" and the 1% factor...

Example for a bicycle:
The whole principle came from the idea that if you broke down everything you could think of that goes into riding a bike, and then improved it by 1%, you will get a significant increase when you put them all together"

This is exactly the same principle used in "some" High-end Audio systems, also for each piece of electronics, even down to a resistor or a capacitor, and its not magic or Foo...
Click to expand...
This is fascinating. Basically like reading an explanation of how weather works written by a medieval monk. The problem is that it isn't actually true.
 
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