Switzerland to become a Socialist's utopia?

[a dca]

Oh yes, I am sure it will be voted down.

Probably. As experience shows, Swiss voters are not easily accepting ideas of a rather experimental character. They show a similar reluctance towards ideas considered to reflect socialist ideals, such as (arbitrarily chosen from the past thirty-+-years) a salary cap of 1:12, the introduction of a minimum wage or the introduction of a maximum of 40 working hours per week etc.

a dca

 

[Cheese]

As it all too often turns out, 'ideas of experimental character' may be recipes for disasters for decades to come. Under Mitterrand (socialist) administration, France has introduced the 35 hours as well as a minimum wage (SMIC). Now ask any Frenchman about the current state of the French industry.

In Switzerland people vote on subjects - I admit that the political class very often arranges/sells things beforehand so in the end they have what they want anyway - but at least people are able to impeach nonsense with tragic consequences such as cited above.

The salary cap 1:12 was a cute idea of a few hippies.

 

[strummer]

It's a brilliant idea. Remove the need for need for means testing & Capita & snooping etc.. No idea of the figures, but our current system must cost a lot to administer.

I hope this works & would like to see it over hear. I don't give a toss if some don't want to work. I will always work, because I want more for my family. Better to accept that some don't have the work ethic than employ armies of busy bodies to force the work-shy to work, while there are willing workers who can't get jobs.

 

[matthewr]

This is actually an idea that has been around for a while -- I wrote about it at university 30 years ago -- but it's been gaining more traction lately. It's far from the bonkers notion it sounds at first and could potentially solve a lot of problems.

Imagine a Britain where the government pays every adult the basic cost of living. Whether rich or poor – or, crucially, whether you’re in paid employment or not – everyone gets the same weekly amount, with no strings attached. The harsh, punitive model of modern “welfare” is a distant memory; passing in and out of employment in the so-called gig economy is now something everyone can afford. The positive consequences extend into the distance: women are newly financially independent and able to exit abusive relationships, public health is noticeably improved, and people are able to devote the time to caring that an ever-ageing society increasingly demands. All the political parties are signed up: just as the welfare state underpinned the 20th century, so this new idea defines the 21st.

Welcome to the world of a unconditional basic income, or UBI, otherwise known as citizens’ income or social wage. It might look like the stuff of absurd utopianism, but the idea is now spreading at speed, from the fringes of the left into mainstream politics – and being tried out around the world.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-everyone-100-a-week-whether-they-work-or-not

 

[TheDecameron]

I was going to say the same, but then I realised that I actually do get nearly that for doing sod all, so I'd best button it.

Gerra job. Bloody loafer...

 

[sean99]

This is actually an idea that has been around for a while -- I wrote about it at university 30 years ago -- but it's been gaining more traction lately. It's far from the bonkers notion it sounds at first and could potentially solve a lot of problems.



http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-everyone-100-a-week-whether-they-work-or-not

I think we'll have to do this this century because technology is going to reduce the need for labour so substantially that the alternative will be mass poverty.

 

[gassor]

I think we'll have to do this this century because technology is going to reduce the need for labour so substantially that the alternative will be mass poverty.

Huh, have you learned nothing from Mr Tebbit? Get on your bike and sell drugs my son. The poor will want something to squander their new cash on and you could be a life line for them. They will no doubt be bombarded with advice about how to open a bank account and how to get out of bed before mid-day, but if they stay true to middle class expectations they will want to get 'blitzed' every night.

Of course any poor people growing their own 'dope' or manufacturing the stuff would have to be severely dealt with, but some 'services' could be a nice little earner for the enterprising individual.

 

[NeilR]

This is actually an idea that has been around for a while -- I wrote about it at university 30 years ago -- but it's been gaining more traction lately. It's far from the bonkers notion it sounds at first and could potentially solve a lot of problems.



http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-everyone-100-a-week-whether-they-work-or-not

You might have been about 50 years too early! I think it will happen though once the need for labour reduces due to automation.

 

[russel]

You might have been about 50 years too early! I think it will happen though once the need for labour reduces due to automation.

It will most likely be sooner rather than later, AI has only just become something people have woken up to and you can argue that AI is as intelligent as a mouse or monkey, it doesn't make a lot of difference. Life on earth started about three and a half billion years ago, one billion years ago bacteria evolved, dinosaurs about 300 million years ago , mammals 150 million years ago and first man like creatures about five million years ago, so the most rapid change has been in the past few million years or one seven hundredth of the timescale, if we are at the level of a mouse its one twenty fifth approximately. Electricity has been around a couple of hundred years, so on the level that AI is at mouse like intelligence, we have eight years before we reach human level intelligence with AI, if it's primitive ape like intelligence now, then its a few months away, its not something that can be dealt with in the distant future, or we could ask our soon to be robot overlords.

 

[gassor]

....we have eight years before we reach human level intelligence with AI, if it's primitive ape like intelligence now, then its a few months away, its not something that can be dealt with in the distant future, or we could ask our soon to be robot overlords.

8, 10, 100 years doesn't matter so much, that AI is coming big time is the future we have to anticipate. In a relatively short time automation plus AI will be able to do most production, then AI will be taking over professional work - doctors, teachers, accountants, dentist and so on.

We must have concerns about the absence of work. Work gives most (?) people their role in society and access to a wide group of potential friends. So how do we stop folk cracking up or going off the rails when society can no longer assign them a purpose?

What would the school curriculum look like, what would people study at Uni? Would technocrats become a ruling class, would football still be on the telly? More questions than answers.

 

[TheDecameron]

Free money for doing nothing? Socialism? That'll be Bullingdon.

 

[Seeker_UK]

So how do we stop folk cracking up or going off the rails when society can no longer assign them a purpose?

Rollerball?

 

[russel]

We must have concerns about the absence of work. Work gives most (?) people their role in society and access to a wide group of potential friends. So how do we stop folk cracking up or going off the rails when society can no longer assign them a purpose?
.

Plenty of experience of that in communities around the world, usually they become crime ridden s4it holes where people escape by using various drugs. Maybe when it affects everyone something might be done, or the AI accountancy programs come up with a cheaper option...

 

[Mikeandvan]

Plenty of experience of that in communities around the world, usually they become crime ridden s4it holes where people escape by using various drugs. Maybe when it affects everyone something might be done, or the AI accountancy programs come up with a cheaper option...

And don't forget the idle rich, their kiddies are all in rehab by 21, oh, but they don't live in shitholes.......... Crime happens when people are despearate. a basic income would remedy that, whats left though are serious existential issues, but they must be faced,l see no alternative, but to muddle through to the next financial crash, and that could be the big one.

 

[gassor]

. Maybe when it affects everyone something might be done, or the AI accountancy programs come up with a cheaper option...

We can't do much so we just become paragons of loucheness

We can't dance, we don't talk much, we just ball and play
But then we move like tigers on Vaseline

 

[NeilR]

As an update, the proposal was rejected by 77% of the voters.

In reality it was way ahead of it's time. Perhaps in 20 years.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36454060

 

[gassor]

As an update, the proposal was rejected by 77% of the voters.

In reality it was way ahead of it's time. Perhaps in 20 years.

Rejected by 77% and with no support from any party. Perhaps in 200 years then.

 

[merlin]

I agree Neil. Maybe ahead of it's time but with up to 15 million jobs at risk in the UK alone, it's only a matter of time before we have to support people who simply have no place in the limited job market.

 

[Robert]

The universal income system is a great idea but not one sustainable under capitalism.

It needs a planned economy which completely removes the profit driver and corporate power from the 0.1%.

Degenerating capitalism means we see ever more severe and often violent downturns, making the ability to support a progressive idea such as universal income unworkable.

 

[gassor]

It needs a planned economy which completely removes the profit driver and corporate power from the 0.1%.

And hands it over to a dictatorial elite.