Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
Peter Green was head and shoulders above both Plant and Page in terms of inventiveness and subtlety, until he lost his marbles:
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"Stairway to heaven" and copyright
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Peter Green was head and shoulders above both Plant and Page in terms of inventiveness and subtlety, until he lost his marbles:
SCIDB
Triode Man
Hi,
The guitarist in that clip is local (Sheffield) legend Frank White. Highly rated guitar player from the 50s onwards. He was a member of the Cruisers (Dave Berry's band) at the time.
The song, "The Crying Game", featured Big Jim Sullivan on lead guitar when it was recorded. The song was recorded using session musicians. The original members of the Cruisers had departed and it was recorded before the new Cruisers were in place.
To tie it in with this thread, the rhythm guitarist on the Carry game was Jimmy Page.
Frank White is also the uncle of Richard Hawley. Richard's dad Dave was in a few bands with Frank. I used a watch the Frank White band a few times back in the 80s and early 90s. Also I was quite pally with Richard Hawley many moons ago.
Dean
herb
brain's right hemisphere
Thanks for that Dean, I remember at the Dave Berry gig the lads laughed at the guy carrying in the double necked guitar - we had not seen one of those before, showing off eh? He had better be a good player! He most certainly was. A few months later we agreed it must have been Jimmy Page, perhaps not.....
It was a great time to see live famous bands on tour in local dance halls.
It was a great time to see live famous bands on tour in local dance halls.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
It has taken quite a bit of tearing down the edifice of even temperament to allow the reinvention of music along different tonal scales and to allow the eventual reintroduction of musical styles (especially folk and microtonal scales) that predate this system of music to inform current 20th century musics. By late romanticism everything Bach stood for had been warmed up and reused by the then equivalent of pedestrian musical necrophiles.
And yes, Bach was. "A career musician" you may be his biggest fanboy but he had to provide what he was asked for on time, in order to survive. It does not make his contribution any less impressive, but he worked within a system of patronage and almost downright fawning in a society that required such things, music as art in and of itself was not an option for him.
One can say "arguably" all they like... And the simple answer is no no no no no... this is an easy trap to fall into, that even temperament informed African folk music that informed gospel and blues and folk/roots music that existed thousands of years before Bach?.... an equally potent viewpoint can be shown that arguably the even temperament system of tuning (which was eventually going to happen, such was the direction music was taking in its attempt to discover a new direction post renaissance tonality) the Florentines' effect was corrosive and for the brief leap forward it stalled for several hundred years slowing the development of music, had it not been for a chance rediscovery in the mid 1800s (thereabouts' 1850 I think,I am away from my books) he would have been petty much forgotten about (either Mendelssohn popularised 'St Matthew Passion' or Forke/Folke/Volke something autobiography proved popular, I cannot recall)
Correct. The lyricism is pure genius. In Empire State of Mind by Jay-Z (The Blueprint 3, highly recommended) Jay-Z sings:
Lights is blinding, girls need blinders
So they can step out of bounds quick
The side lines is lined with casualties
Who sip the life casually, then gradually become worse
Dont bite the apple, Eve
Caught up in the in-crowd, now you're in-style
And in the winter gets cold en vogue with your skin out
Notes from Rap Genius:
The bright lights of New York blind and at the same time attract all the pretty girls. They need to wear blinders (put on racehorses so that they are not distracted in a race) and walk in a straight line, ignoring all the fancies
Even though they try to stay away from their surrounding, the characters here become seduced by the capitalist lifestyle and end up addicted to the limelight. The references to MDMA and Ambien in the last two verses only amps up that addiction discourse.
In the Bible, the apple represented temptation, drawing Eve to sin. Similarly, the Big Apple (New York) turns perfectly nice young ladies into materialistic girls.
InStyle is a fashion magazine and Jay makes and in the winter sound like Anna Wintour gets cold in Vogue with your skin out, referring to Anna Wintour, the Editor-in-Chief of Vogue magazine, which shows how much the girl focuses on style and appearance before morals.
All that in seven pithy lines.
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tones
Tones deaf
But why tear down a system that has served us so well? The two can exist side by side quite comfortably.
I think you're slightly misinterpreting what I said. As you correctly say, the concept of "art" in music didn't exist in Bach's time (that took Beethoven), and Bach would never have thought of himself as an artist. However, "career musician" implied "produces by rote" (as did, e.g. the French composers at the court of Louis XIV, required to churn out masses of stuff for Louis's massive entertainments), and that Bach never was. There was more to him than that, a strong element of pushing the envelope, never standing still , always eager to learn and develop.
No matter what happened in African music, the well-tempered scale was a big leap forward for western music - and was it not the fusion of African music and western-style folk music and nomenclature that gave us blues, jazz and ultimately rock?
Bach had been forgotten by most people in the early 1800s, and the only memory of him that remained in Leipzig was that of a great organist. This was largely because of the then current idea that music was improving all the time, thereby rendering the old stuff irrelevant (although some people did still recognise greatness - Beethoven cracked the famous German pun that his name should really have been "ocean" ("Bach" = brook or small stream) - and a projected Beethoven 10th symphony would have been on the key signature B-A-C-H). Forkel's biography in the early 1800s and Mendelssohn's being given a score of the St. Matt as a present and insisting on performing it in the late 1820s were major triggers for the revival.
herb
brain's right hemisphere
"One can argue" that his rediscovery would have been eventual as well, but to be honest Bach is just another bump in an already bumpy road, like 12 tone and serialism and the NV school (Webern, Berg etc) postmodernism, minimalism and the myriad contemporary forms and directions it has taken, almost none of which can be shown to have required any of Bach or the baroque "movement's" heritage. I find I have to drive around the sodding great contrapuntal rock in the road every time I approach this kind of approach music. It is an annoyance.
Its possible that music has been irrevocably changed and that we should all be in awe of Bach, but unlikely given he was pretty much forgotten about 100 years past his death... but it's equally possibly his contribution is completely an irrelevance to everyone other than baroque fanbois. Its impossible to categorically say one way or the other because what has happened has happened and we cannot reliably see what might have happened but given the Bach was forgotten about and referred only to by academics for at least a hundred years following his death, there is a pretty strong case that what he stood for was "interesting but inessential"
The edifice is to be torn down because it is an obstruction in the way of progress -- only a past composer warmed up by necrophiliacs. There are no sacred cows on this highway only roadkill.
And dangerous people constantly looking in the mirror instead of ahead.
Its possible that music has been irrevocably changed and that we should all be in awe of Bach, but unlikely given he was pretty much forgotten about 100 years past his death... but it's equally possibly his contribution is completely an irrelevance to everyone other than baroque fanbois. Its impossible to categorically say one way or the other because what has happened has happened and we cannot reliably see what might have happened but given the Bach was forgotten about and referred only to by academics for at least a hundred years following his death, there is a pretty strong case that what he stood for was "interesting but inessential"
The edifice is to be torn down because it is an obstruction in the way of progress -- only a past composer warmed up by necrophiliacs. There are no sacred cows on this highway only roadkill.
And dangerous people constantly looking in the mirror instead of ahead.
I do like JayZ.... Squeeze 1st vs Bach Brandenburg-something-or-other-rambling-and-not-very-conscise...
...powdered Wig all over the floor
...powdered Wig all over the floor
tones
Tones deaf
Gents, I think we can safely agree to disagree on this one. I am happy for you to like rap (which I don't acknowledge as music), provided you are happy for me not to like it. I will never see how a bit of poetry set to a beat, no matter how clever with words, can compare to the glories and genius of Bach, Mozart and Beethoven. With that, I shall return to my coffin and close the lid to suitable accompaniment:
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formbypc
pfm Member
Mike D'abo managed much the same in two or three, maybe ...
"You don't mean a single thing, without
The handbags and the gladrags that your poor old grandad had to sweat to buy you"
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
Of course the lyrical genius that is Nigel Blackwell wazzes all over this rap nonsense.
I’m a hard-jackin’ sound-scaping jump-uppin’ left-of-centre
Freakbeat affair who refuses to worship at the altar of Detroit
I’m a funked-up holy roller
I’ve got a Nu House where the Old Skool used to be
Eggs bread cigs milk
Eggs bread cigs milk
I’m light and dark, phat and mean
King of the Frankfurt jazz-tip scene
Amen injections, sex-beat electro
Drops like you’ve never heard before
Remind our kid of Moroder
Remind our kid of Moroder
Moroder
Moroder
M’road out of here is a trunk route
A552
A552
We got ten out of ten in Jockey Slut
Four out of five in Mixmag
Wax and Update wanna do features
Do you ken Kenny Ken with his AKA?
AKA
Steve Madden
Steve Madden
Charles Nove
Leskanich
Leskanich
Stretch and Vern, look and learn
It’s 1am and he’s set to burn
Drum and bass, Hake and Plaice
Muck and brass, Cod and Bass
He knows his knobs and he nightly robs
Massive mobs from Mary-Anne Hobbs
With talk of jam and crusty cobs
Warm barm, thank you ma’am
Warm barm, thank you ma’am
Eggs bread cigs milk
Eggs bread cigs milk
The headphones are out on the tour bus by and by
And everyone’s listening to Charlie on the sly
God help you if your tour bus crashes and you die
We’ll all know you were listening to Charlie on the sly
Charlie on the sly
Like Jennifer in Rye
and Phil in Hay-on-Wye
who requested “My Oh My”
the one recorded by
Sad Café
Got ten out of ten in Jockey Slut
I’m a hard-jackin’ sound-scaping jump-uppin’ left-of-centre
Freakbeat affair who refuses to worship at the altar of Detroit
I’m a funked-up holy roller
I’ve got a Nu House where the Old Skool used to be
Eggs bread cigs milk
Eggs bread cigs milk
I’m light and dark, phat and mean
King of the Frankfurt jazz-tip scene
Amen injections, sex-beat electro
Drops like you’ve never heard before
Remind our kid of Moroder
Remind our kid of Moroder
Moroder
Moroder
M’road out of here is a trunk route
A552
A552
We got ten out of ten in Jockey Slut
Four out of five in Mixmag
Wax and Update wanna do features
Do you ken Kenny Ken with his AKA?
AKA
Steve Madden
Steve Madden
Charles Nove
Leskanich
Leskanich
Stretch and Vern, look and learn
It’s 1am and he’s set to burn
Drum and bass, Hake and Plaice
Muck and brass, Cod and Bass
He knows his knobs and he nightly robs
Massive mobs from Mary-Anne Hobbs
With talk of jam and crusty cobs
Warm barm, thank you ma’am
Warm barm, thank you ma’am
Eggs bread cigs milk
Eggs bread cigs milk
The headphones are out on the tour bus by and by
And everyone’s listening to Charlie on the sly
God help you if your tour bus crashes and you die
We’ll all know you were listening to Charlie on the sly
Charlie on the sly
Like Jennifer in Rye
and Phil in Hay-on-Wye
who requested “My Oh My”
the one recorded by
Sad Café
Got ten out of ten in Jockey Slut
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mmaatt
pfm Member
Don't let me put you off enjoying rock, nothing wrong with early Cream, which was about as good as it gets. I just think Clapton lost intensity and direction in his playing after that.
I too love Bach's Cantatas, I normally listen to one first thing in the morning with a coffee. I'm stuck on BWV93, 29 and 179 at the moment.
I also frequently listen to his organ works, the Preludes and Fugues and Trio Sonatas; it was from these I think his cantata compositions originated from. I can just imagine him jamming away just like Jimi Hendrix or John Coltrane.
To me it seems quite natural to go from Bach to Ornette Coleman, Shostakovich, Stockhausen, John Cage, Last Exit; together they are part of the music cosmos.
mat
mmaatt
pfm Member
I totally agree, a work of great imagination.
If you want to hear music pushing the boundaries today try some Peter Brotzmann or Kawabata Makoto, wipes the floor with any rap I've heard (musically).
mat
I am a massive clapton fan, have watched him live 4 times, he was superb with Steve Winwood, and he is a different person live. Hi Just One Night live album is superb. But to say he is better than Jimmy Page is BS, because Jimmy Page was even whackier live, and way more emotion, song to song. Both were boring in the studio compared to what they did live.
Bach Cantata 140 is one of my audition tracks, so is Mozart and Verdi, sometimes Vivaldi. And the live Stairway from How the West Was Won.
I have been watching a lot of classical live shows in London recently - Royal Albert hall, Southbank, St. Martin's - while they were all great, none of them compared to what a tribute Zeppelin band did at Wimbledon Theatre which had much poor acoustics.
Anyone who is trying to show intellectual superiority putting classical way over Zeppelin will struggle to enjoy music as they will live in their shells