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"Stairway to heaven" and copyright

Hi Tony,

I think Rap music is much-maligned and misunderstood. The lyrics usually tell a story, and often have more than one possible meaning. Rap Genius is very helpful as a way in. Here's a couple of views of New York. Click the lyrics for a translation.

Perhaps it is, James, but to my ears it is simply not music. The story in the lyrics is immaterial to me. Let's take a bit of rock that I actually like. The following lyrics are pure, meaningless drivel, but there's an intensity and magic in the performance, especially Clapton's guitar work, which, IMHO, in terms of musicality and emotion, leaves anything I've ever heard Mr. Page do in the shade:

 
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If we ever meet, we'd better go to the pub, because that is bleedin' awful. Never could stand Clapton.
 
Same here, most over-rated guitarist ever - always plays the same laboured clichéd lines.

The only good thing about that piece is the drumming.

Having said that I do like early Cream, but after that Clapton never did anything interesting; for me anyway.

Far more accusation of plagiarism could be levelled at Clapton; JJ Cale anyone?

mat
 
Clapton's career is very heavily based on JJ Cale's work. JJ Cale is one of my personal Holy Trinity; the other two being Van Morrison and Tom Waits.
 
Same here, most over-rated guitarist ever - always plays the same laboured clichéd lines.

Perhaps you're right, mat (you'd certainly know better than I would), but I really like that. Perhaps I should stick to Bach cantatas...
 
Perhaps it is, James, but to my ears it is simply not music. The story in the lyrics is immaterial to me. Let's take a bit of rock that I actually like. The following lyrics are pure, meaningless drivel, but there's an intensity and magic in the performance, especially Clapton's guitar work, which, IMHO, in terms of musicality and emotion, leaves anything I've ever heard Mr. Page do in the shade:


You won't find many rock fans dissing early Cream, or Zep. Most like both. However if you were listening to Bach Cantatas when you were a teenager then it explains why Zep might not resonate with you. But hey that is no criticism just means you may be too cerebral to enjoy rock...
 
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Perhaps I should stick to Bach cantatas...

This is not a bad strategy, I know a lot of academics and composers -- and one or two listeners -- for whom they discover an entire universe in a microcosm: they prefer depth of understanding rather than breadth: audiophiles especially like to skitter wildly from genre to genre; the former look at the commonalities and differences that separate interpretations from one another.

I could (and sometimes do) spend weeks doing this (and I do not produce music in any "normal" sense*) and it is incredibly useful to listen to as many variations as possible and ask oneself what the impositions and suppositions are that led to one particular interpretation (generally more insightful to a practitioner than some perverse "emotional response" based on how you are feeling rather than what you are understanding); Bach's cantatas are a great example -- in 40 years I can think of about half a dozen varying (academically supported at the time -- and Bach musicology is ongoing) ideas of what continuo is and to what level it ought to be applied, it is far more revealing to dig into the cultural and technical and historical musicology of our understanding of a work rather than some pornographic "emotional response" I see trotted out repeatedly as a proxy for understanding.

A lot of the time people express very wide tastes in music but show almost no knowledge of the music they listen to, simply expressing a set of responses to what they are hearing, (as if that is informative, helpful or even invited by the composer). I am interested in the curious and those who are forever asking "why do I derive insight from [this] and not [that]?" What is the component in this set of sometimes arranged sounds that gravitates me to performance [x] rather than performance [y]? What are the fundamental beliefs I have about this music and what are they based on? Can they be supported?

The subject of "what is and what is not [music]" is too big for our species to adequately address and I stopped a long time ago when I got dizzy chasing my tail. One could spend probably a lifetime defending the notion that every single oscillation in the universe is inseparable from music, (but I prefer wilful snubbing of current popular aesthetics and aleatoric indeterminacy over Bach's shoehorning of music into a system of even temperament), which has so limited the development of music for the past few hundred years, so it is no wonder why 70s rock bands whom all stand in the shoes of varying folk musics are treading on each other's feet.

Bach, it has to be said was a normal career musician and kapellmeister who needed patronage so was bound by writing what worked and what did not... So he himself had to play the 'give the punters what they like' and the 'hey look at meeeee' game and that means to a certain degree be equal parts novel and derivative.

Eventually composers who tap at the edges of music as an art in and of itself hit a cold implacable wall and how (or if) we choose to go beyond it or stay behind its safe historical confines defines us and our relationship with notions of systems that define music more than the music itself.

*I expect a lawsuit from a neutron star in a few billion years time.
 
Same here, most over-rated guitarist ever - always plays the same laboured clichéd lines.

The only good thing about that piece is the drumming.

Having said that I do like early Cream, but after that Clapton never did anything interesting; for me anyway.

Far more accusation of plagiarism could be levelled at Clapton; JJ Cale anyone?

mat

There's an interview with Deep Purple singer Ian Gillan in the DVD "Come Hell or High Water'' where he says Ritchie Blackmore once told him that Clapton can't play the guitar.

Gillan rubbished the thought and criticised Blackmore - the interview was after Blackmore stormed off the stage in the middle of Highway Star because a roadie had left a glass of water on his speaker cabinet - and personally, I do like Clapton's tone and phrasing, but in terms of breaking new musical ground, I can see where Blackmore was coming from.
 
My memory of the time regarding Clapton, for what it is worth, when he was considered 'godlike' was

Yardbirds - amazing drive in a Swindon dance hall, I saw them twice
Mayall - one of my all time favourite LPs
Cream- very powerful sound, especially Baker, in a small Swindon disco, but they were all very 'high' and the place was almost empty

I have not liked any Clapton since

Random

Stones were almost blues chamber music in 1964 in a restaurant with the tables moved to the walls and a small stage, Brian Jones was the star

I saw Page in a backing group for Dave Berry, he was outstanding.

I love Bach but agree that even temperament is a huge limitation to take on for a modern composer. Times have changed.
 
I love Bach but agree that even temperament is a huge limitation to take on for a modern composer. Times have changed.

Perhaps, but it has to be seen in context - it was a massive leap forward at the time - it made the transposition of music so much easier and arguably made way for what we now have.
 
Bach, it has to be said was a normal career musician and kapellmeister who needed patronage so was bound by writing what worked and what did not... So he himself had to play the 'give the punters what they like' and the 'hey look at meeeee' game and that means to a certain degree be equal parts novel and derivative.

Only up to a point. Read the authoritative "J.S. Bach; the learned musician" by Prof. Christoph Wolff on this point. Bach was forever pushing the boundaries. He was constantly at loggerheads with the Leipzig city fathers over his demands for music and what it would do to their budget. The B Minor Mass, which was never performed in his time (and was certainly not known by that name until much later) seems to have been a compendium of everything he knew about choral music, as was "The Art of Fugue" a compendium of the fugal style. No wonder the style changed after Bach - Handel and he had said essentially everything there was to say in the baroque style (insofar as it can be said to be a single style).

Moreover, Bach was no "normal career musician"; he was a genius, the like of which we shall probably never see again. I am not musically educated, but I sometimes have a hankering to learn music, just to appreciate fully what he did. Friends who are musically learned are constantly amazed and surprised by Bach - as Mozart famously exclaimed on hearing a Bach piece, "Now there is someone from whom we can learn something!"
 
Perhaps, but it has to be seen in context - it was a massive leap forward at the time - it made the transposition of music so much easier and arguably made way for what we now have.

I agree, the harpsichord music is wonderful. His religious music is well worth listening to, especially when seen/heard live. It is very different to Tavener religious music though.

I would love to have seen Bach confront a gamelan orchestra. :)
 
Curiously Jimmy Page now looks a bit like JS Bach.


Paul
 
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Curiously Jimmy Page now looks a bit like JS Bach.


Paul

Johann_Sebastian_Bach.jpg


Blödsinn! Der Man is gar nicht so cool!
 
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