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Sorry it didn't work for me, same SQ

Yes, it really is that simple.

Why are the answers not in plain view during exams?

Try answering the question...
 
avole said:
jk, be honest: with all the best will in the world, where would your market go if blind tests revealed there were no differences between DACs?
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So let me try again - sure - if you understood auditory perception & it was proven that all DACs sounded the same - then the buying decisions would be down to facilities & bling. But we don't understand auditory perception & we don't have all the tests to characterise DACs so are you suggesting that some hobbyists pseudo-scientific blind tests are actually of some value in answering your hypothetical question?

Clearly it is in the interests of all the manufacturers and resellers to continue to promote sighted tests.
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I have always wanted & supported tests that are more grounded in what we actually want from our audio systems - the creation of the most realistic auditory illusion.

Let's see some progress in testing which can get closer to this goal.

So are you going to accuse me of not answering your question, again?
 
Basil said:
Yes, it really is that simple.

Why are the answers not in plain view during exams?

Try answering the question...
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No, it's not. This is something you tell yourself so you can put this issue on the mental shelf marked "solved". But it's not solved.
 
Basil said:
Yes, it really is that simple.

Why are the answers not in plain view during exams?

Try answering the question...
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You have heard of open book exams, haven't you - they test something different to regurgitating a learned answer?

This is perceptual testing - you are not even in the same ballpark with your analogy to exams!
 
jkeny said:
You have heard of open book exams, haven't you - they test something different to regurgitating a learned answer?

This is perceptual testing - you are not even in the same ballpark with your analogy to exams!
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I don't think this means what you think it means.

darrenyeats said:
No, it's not. This is something you tell yourself so you can put this issue on the mental shelf marked "solved". But it's not solved.
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Why are the answers not in plain view during exams?
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
To add: there have been proposals on here to test the sensitivity of blind tests, for example by blind-testing two components known to be measurably and audibly different. Those proposals have been vigorously decried. Not sure why.
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Now that's a blind test I want to see. Quadruple blind? :D
 
Basil said:
Why are the answers not in plain view during exams?
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Well, it depends on the exam of course. But mostly it is to test whether the examinee can regurgitate learned facts, on demand. Where the exam is to test understanding, it is often 'open book' so the answers might be, if not in plain view, then certainly within reach.

But I don't see the relevance, unless you are suggesting that a blind test of audio components is some sort of exam, and the listener is actually the test subject. You might need to have a word with the blind test proponents, because this is precisely what they maintain a blind test isn't. They maintain that a blind test is simply to test whether A is reliably distinguishable from B, and not a test of whether subject X can reliably tell A from B. They also say that it is ridiculous to suggest that a blind test might be stressful, and they mock anybody who suggests it. Now you (Basil) are suggesting a blind test is an exam. Are you familiar with 'exam nerves'?
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
I agree, that has been my experience too. Where we differ is in our conclusions. You conclude that there is therefore no difference. I maintain that that is not a valid conclusion, and that we have to eliminate the possibility that the blind test is itself masking real differences, before we can reach that conclusion.

You cannot argue, on the one hand, that hearing perception is a multi-sensory phenomenon, and yet on the other hand, that reducing the available sensory inputs does not materially affect that perception. This is also where BE and I are failing to find common ground. It may prompt the elimination of sighted bias, but it may also cause the reduction in the sensitivity and subtle discrimination of ones hearing. We don't know if it does or it doesn't, which is precisely the point. Until we do know, one way or the other, we can't simply accept the findings of a blind test, even if conducted with statistically significant rigour, without question.
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Thing is sue, when I really want to concentrate on listening, guess what i do, I close my eyes!

I simply don't buy into this idea that not seeing the component dulls your hearing as you have stated.

Honestly I am a little lost for words on this one.
 
I too prefer to listen in very low light or absense of light , I suppose I enjoy the lack of distraction.
Level matching and unsighted testing can be a pain, and with some components it is just not practical, but ,again IME it is useful, and perfect for products of 'questionable' worth.
Keith.
 
jkeny said:
The psychology of buying is a whole different can of worms & should really be divorced from the discussion of blind testing as it very much differs from person to person based on their finances, what space they intend to us it in, WAF, etc.

I've seen some people use this as a way of resisting the upgrade itch - going out to a hifi dealer & just auditioning kit often relieves the itch
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So why blind test, for what purpose?
 
jkeny said:
Maybe there weren't & they have since fallen into a permanent state of self-delusion where they hear those differences every time they listen.

But you do realise what blind testing involves & how your statement is wrong?
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i have been involved in many blind tests back in the day when this kind of thing bothered me, yes.

I have found them to have their flaws & plus points but they are pointless unless using them as a purchasing tool, i mean, why else would you carry this out?
 
Basil said:
I don't think this means what you think it means.



Why are the answers not in plain view during exams?
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The answers to exam questions are already in our head ready to put down in an exam once "remembered" how this has any relevence to listening to hifi equipment i have no idea, maybe you could explain this.

In a blind test there are no answers for a start, then you have no idea what your listening to & finally, memory of the equipment you are listening to & have no idea of, doesn't exist, this being the whole point of the blind test.
 
:D
linnfomaniac83 said:
Glad someone said it, whilst some kit will benefit from a service, there is a lot of kit that is in perfect working order serviced needlessly. If a Linn amp is still perfect after 20+ years of daily use (and before anybody says they won't be, there are plenty of Linn amps between my family and friends that are), then why should a Naim need a service after 10 years? I don't buy it. If it notably deteriorates or fails completely then fine, otherwise leave it alone.
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Bravo for some common sense.
When I hear people talk about needing to send this or that piece of equipment for service , although it is not showing any adverse signs - because someone 'happened to suggest it'............. BLAH!
It reminds me of the car owner hypochondria reported some years ago in Germany. Where some owners when they sent their car into a garage for Service....sent flowers to IT!!!
:D:D
 
Music freak said:
:DBravo for some common sense.
When I hear people talk about needing to send this or that piece of equipment for service , although it is not showing any adverse signs - because someone 'happened to suggest it'............. BLAH!
It reminds me of the car owner hypochondria reported some years ago in Germany. Where some owners when they sent their car into a garage for Service....sent flowers to IT!!!
:D:D
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As I see it, the problem with this conclusion is that gradual deterioration may not be noticed. Cleaning all your plug and socket connections can "refresh" the sound. Valves age, and some caps too.
And as for the car owners; are you suggesting they shouldn't have their cars serviced? If you aren't, then that analogy has no relevance. If you are, do you have a car? :eek:
 
Ragaman said:
The answers to exam questions are already in our head ready to put down in an exam once "remembered" how this has any relevence to listening to hifi equipment i have no idea, maybe you could explain this.

In a blind test there are no answers for a start, then you have no idea what your listening to & finally, memory of the equipment you are listening to & have no idea of, doesn't exist, this being the whole point of the blind test.
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Is there no pressure on the tester? Especially if they have been challenged? And of course there IS some knowledge of what you are listening to; cables, or amps, etc. And often the item in question may be in your memory, and you may be trying to remember the characteristic sound of it.
For example, if A sounded harsher than B, and you are given A,B and C to listen to, what if C is even harsher? Unless the question is simply whether there is ANY difference at all. But even then there can be pressure to "perform".
 
Back to the OP (again).

Reading polarised opinions on forum threads has made no difference to the way my system sounds (to me; in the dark; or with the lights on; or with my book open; or on days that have a 'y' in them)
 
sunbeamgls said:
Back to the OP (again).

Reading polarised opinions on forum threads has made no difference to the way my system sounds (to me; in the dark; or with the lights on; or with my book open; or on days that have a 'y' in them)
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Thanks for the On Topic post
 
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