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Sorry it didn't work for me, same SQ

Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Yes. and one possible control for a blind test regime might have been to blind test two items known to be measurably and audibly different but, for whatever reason, when this was proposed it was resisted and went no further.
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i think you may have missed the point- how do you think things which are known to be audibly different are known to be such? I accept that one might look at one particular test regime against various other test regimes; but your residual doubt against any form of testing ends up with epistemic nihilism.

You may remember a Harman training test which was circulated recently allowing to test their ability to hear noise, distortion phase etc. People evidently can distinguish some things in these tests. But what could we test the test against? certainly not against what people simply thought they could do when there was no possible way of knowing whether they were right. And sadly, in this particular context that goes for an awful lot of what people think they know.

I accept that it may be useful in some circumstances to test discrimination in a particular set of experimental conditions against something the test subjects could positively identify in other conditions. But this does not work as a blanket rejection of any form of structured testing.

As to your other point, I think we are all invested to a greater or lesser degree (else why would we spend so much time here?), so to claim that some are susceptible and some are immune to subconscious influences is perhaps indicative of the level of self-awareness or personal insight on the part of some.
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And again, i'm afraid you have missed my point. i am not claiming that some people are immune from subconscious influences at all. I'm considering the claim (which I certainly do not hold) that either the whole or part of the population experiences such performance anxiety that it loses its power to discriminate merely by being asked to do so. why is the test supposed to be stressful just by being a test?

One of the results of the file distribution mp3 tests, 24 bit tests, filter tests etc etc etc. is that there generally turns out to be no difference between the population as whole and those who may think they are very discriminating (hifi reviewers etc). If those who believe they are particularly discriminating can;t tell mp3 from flac any better that the general population then they have to resort to the argument that their peculiar superpowers are interfered with by the testing regime.

And again a little common sense is involved. Why would it be stressful for people who have no emotional investment in the subject matter to be asked which of two files they prefer? Either way we come back to the point that if something is inherently untestable then it is inherently unknowable. Perhaps people really do have esp except that it disappears whenever they are tested.

And finally what makes you think that that the question of how to make tests maximise discrimination has not been considered by those who devise perceptual tests? AFAIK that is exactly how we know that audio memory is very short and that relatively rapid switching is necessary in order to make subjects discriminate accurately between A and B. And yet.....
 
awkwardbydesign said:
As I see it, the problem with this conclusion is that gradual deterioration may not be noticed. Cleaning all your plug and socket connections can "refresh" the sound. Valves age, and some caps too.
And as for the car owners; are you suggesting they shouldn't have their cars serviced? If you aren't, then that analogy has no relevance. If you are, do you have a car? :eek:
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Down the years we know the tried & true requirements to keep a car running smoothly. There is a lot more riding on lack of car maintenance simple user wear & tear. Taken to its extreme, car neglect can cause injury / death.
Alterative though, I am somewhat surprised that you do not seem to see what I was hinting at, regarding Hi Fi equipment :)
I would not criticize anyone for going through some regular regimen, cleaning their own Hi Fi plugs and connections' in the home. It is a reality that -over time - they gather " surface grunge /oxidization" on the conductive materials used in electrical cabling and plugs. Besides such a DIY cleaning procedure costs a listener.... nothing.

To me, Hi FI is about bringing together some individual choice of combination equipment that personally suits me. I require it has longevity, reliability and actually simply , does what I demand...without any form of strain either electrically or musically. After all, the Industry to remain valid- claims it is also all about "investment". The ability to sit down , use and forget the equipment, and then ....now....ENJOY the music.
As far as listening to dealers/ repairers suggest ....wanting to forever 'tinker-tinker' to improve what one already possesses....I have no patience. If something for a justifiable price apparently "better" comes along..... I will use my own non -outside and uninfluenced opinion to strongly consider new purchases for my various systems around the house.
The stories one has heard -down the years of gullible insecure Hi Fi enthusiasts 'taken in' - by opportunistic dealers/ repairers, is lengthy!!

IE A fella I knew once that had a pair of top speakers : subsequently he had been talked into allowing a clown of a dealer/repairer to 'improve' their performance. It happened to involve the complex cross-over network system being 'tinkered with'...
Alas! ...when the man got them back home, it was not long before one or two of the speakers in the Units ...were blown. Worse, several years had gone since they were 'the current model'. ...and replacement speakers were now unavailable. :eek:
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Yes. and one possible control for a blind test regime might have been to blind test two items known to be measurably and audibly different but, for whatever reason, when this was proposed it was resisted and went no further.

As to your other point, I think we are all invested to a greater or lesser degree (else why would we spend so much time here?), so to claim that some are susceptible and some are immune to subconscious influences is perhaps indicative of the level of self-awareness or personal insight on the part of some.
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Hey Sue, how have you got on with those measurably different tracks I sent you a while back?
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Yes. and one possible control for a blind test regime might have been to blind test two items known to be measurably and audibly different but, for whatever reason, when this was proposed it was resisted and went no further.
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That's nonsense. Pretty much the first hit on a search is http://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_index.php . Or http://www.goldenears.philips.com/en/introduction.html And there are, and have been, many other examples where the limits of your acuity can be assessed.

As to your other point, I think we are all invested to a greater or lesser degree (else why would we spend so much time here?), so to claim that some are susceptible and some are immune to subconscious influences is perhaps indicative of the level of self-awareness or personal insight on the part of some.
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Surely it is you who claims to be immune?

These threads just go round and round. For you it's clearly about testing your faith, and you're not prepared to indulge the possibility that your personal experience isn't physically real. So there's no point in endless discussion, you, and some others, clearly are not interested in exploring your experiences.

Paul
 
I would love to do a blind test for the things being tested and see if all the reasons why people won't do them are true for moi.

I know impressions held in the past and firmly held can be modified by a recent experience i.e. Something you thought was terrible/amazing is now today no big deal.
 
Music freak said:
Down the years we know the tried & true requirements to keep a car running smoothly. There is a lot more riding on lack of car maintenance simple user wear & tear. Taken to its extreme, car neglect can cause injury / death.
Alterative though, I am somewhat surprised that you do not seem to see what I was hinting at, regarding Hi Fi equipment :)
I would not criticize anyone for going through some regular regimen, cleaning their own Hi Fi plugs and connections' in the home. It is a reality that -over time - they gather " surface grunge /oxidization" on the conductive materials used in electrical cabling and plugs. Besides such a DIY cleaning procedure costs a listener.... nothing.

To me, Hi FI is about bringing together some individual choice of combination equipment that personally suits me. I require it has longevity, reliability and actually simply , does what I demand...without any form of strain either electrically or musically. After all, the Industry to remain valid- claims it is also all about "investment". The ability to sit down , use and forget the equipment, and then ....now....ENJOY the music.
As far as listening to dealers/ repairers suggest ....wanting to forever 'tinker-tinker' to improve what one already possesses....I have no patience. If something for a justifiable price apparently "better" comes along..... I will use my own non -outside and uninfluenced opinion to strongly consider new purchases for my various systems around the house.
The stories one has heard -down the years of gullible insecure Hi Fi enthusiasts 'taken in' - by opportunistic dealers/ repairers, is lengthy!!

IE A fella I knew once that had a pair of top speakers : subsequently he had been talked into allowing a clown of a dealer/repairer to 'improve' their performance. It happened to involve the complex cross-over network system being 'tinkered with'...
Alas! ...when the man got them back home, it was not long before one or two of the speakers in the Units ...were blown. Worse, several years had gone since they were 'the current model'. ...and replacement speakers were now unavailable. :eek:
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Cor, that's a lot of words!
I guess I'm lucky I do my own modifying. :) And manufacturing, in many cases.
 
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