sme 3009 armboard/tracking issue?

[davidismynaim]

one thought from me, looking at one of your photos, it looks like you didn't have all the 4 screws in place. I would expect the cutout in the ply to be oversized a little to the actual can of the SME tonearm, so maybe you can re-position the whole arm assembly a couple of mm further back, pushing the 'can' right up to the point it is against the wood, this may improve you geometry enough to get the alignment you are looking for. This way you may need to create 4 new pilot holes to secure the wood screws in. Worth filling the existing ones first to reduce the likelihood that the screws find the existing holes. Long shot, but thought I would share my thinking.

It is a pain with some many SME geometry , do you know if the protector is the original for the tonearm you have, it is conceivable it was produced for say a later imp version and may not even be setting this tonearm up to its correct geometry?

 

[Craig B]

Out of curiosity, can the arm tube not be loosened and shifted by 3mm towards the rear?

Message from seller is that the measurment was 215.4mm from spindle to the centre of the sme hole, just checked myself and it does seem to measure that...

Is it possible iv'e flattened the stylus a little by being clumsy and that's what's causing the mis-alignment?

Ah ha, you are correct, the front face of the removable stylus knob should be flush relative to the forward face of the cartridge body. It is also critical to get this right, as these are IM cartridges hence the shield can being so far back relative to the platform above (i.e. there's a fixed magnet up there).

Looks like you could have 2mm right there.

Here's an ADC file photo of MK IV from circa 1972...

 

[Tony L]

It is a pain with some many SME geometry , do you know if the protector is the original for the tonearm you have, it is conceivable it was produced for say a later imp version and may not even be setting this tonearm up to its correct geometry?

You can tell by measuring the protractor, if the centre of the centre hole to the indicated null is something close to 60mm it is pre-Improved, if closer to 66mm it is for a Series III or very late Improved. No pre-Improved SME is anything other than Stevenson (60mm).

Great news about the cart stylus if right. Also worth trying to measure the distance from the centre of cart mounting lugs to stylus tip just to establish if the ADC is an outlier and especially long in this regard. IIRC most carts are within 9-12mm.

PS I have a real pre-Improved 3009 mounting template in front of me now and the centre spindle to centre of cutout slot is 215mm. FWIW I’m pretty convinced the mounting slot has never changed, i.e. you can drop a late-Improved, Series III, IV, V, M2-9 or whatever straight into a 1959 Series I cutout, let alone any later version.

 

[jan tomczak]

one thought from me, looking at one of your photos, it looks like you didn't have all the 4 screws in place. I would expect the cutout in the ply to be oversized a little to the actual can of the SME tonearm, so maybe you can re-position the whole arm assembly a couple of mm further back, pushing the 'can' right up to the point it is against the wood, this may improve you geometry enough to get the alignment you are looking for. This way you may need to create 4 new pilot holes to secure the wood screws in. Worth filling the existing ones first to reduce the likelihood that the screws find the existing holes. Long shot, but thought I would share my thinking.

It is a pain with some many SME geometry , do you know if the protector is the original for the tonearm you have, it is conceivable it was produced for say a later imp version and may not even be setting this tonearm up to its correct geometry?

Ignore the pic with a screw missing as i was manipulating the armboard, in out in out...

I have had the armboard at it's farthest point to the point where you you could see the front of the cutout showing...the can is a very snug fit...no left or right shift.

I've tried everything...just seems the cutout should be a further 3mm away from the turntable.

 

[jan tomczak]

You can tell by measuring the protractor, if the centre of the centre hole to the indicated null is something close to 60mm it is pre-Improved, if closer to 66mm it is for a Series III or very late Improved. No pre-Improved SME is anything other than Stevenson (60mm).

Great news about the cart stylus if right. Also worth trying to measure the distance from the centre of cart mounting lugs to stylus tip just to establish if the ADC is an outlier and especially long in this regard. IIRC most carts are within 9-12mm.

PS I have a real (Stevenson) 3009 mounting template in front of me now and the centre spindle to centre of cutout slot is 215mm. FWIW I’m pretty convinced the mounting slot has never changed, i.e. you can drop a late-Improved, Series III, IV, V, M2-9 or whatever straight into a 1959 Series I cutout, let alone any later version.

Probably look at another cart just in case the adc is at fault. The seller has stated that all cutouts are standard, no matter which model of arm. Will do some measuring re the stylus tip to cutout centre.

 

[cobbers]

I would certainly try alternative alignments first

 

[jan tomczak]

Ah ha, you are correct, the front face of the removable stylus knob should be flush relative to the forward face of the cartridge body. It is also critical to get this right, as these are IM cartridges hence the shield can being so far back relative to the platform above (i.e. there's a fixed magnet up there).

Looks like you could have 2mm right there.

Here's an ADC file photo of MK IV from circa 1972...

Out of interest, would someone have a suggestion for a new cart (modern) that would suit the sme?

 

[jan tomczak]

I would certainly try alternative alignments first

A different protractor you mean?

 

[Tony L]

Probably look at another cart just in case the adc is at fault. The seller has stated that all cutouts are standard, no matter which model of arm. Will do some measuring re the stylus tip to cutout centre.

Also check how the 401 is sitting in the plinth, you may find some wiggle-room there. FWIW that is an area to play with anyway as I guarantee the looser you mount it to the plinth the more open and natural it will sound. I’d use the Garrard rubber washers too. Regardless, I bet there is a mm or two to be found there.

 

[jan tomczak]

Also check how the 401 is sitting in the plinth, you may find some wiggle-room there. FWIW that is an area to play with anyway as I guarantee the looser you mount it to the plinth the more open and natural it will sound. I’d use the Garrard rubber washers too. Regardless, I bet there is a mm or two to be found there.

Very snug tight fit, no wiggle at all and i'm using the original 45mm bolts, circlip and washer only, no fixings from the underside...atm it's set up to play...the cart which is .7g i have got it at .71g ( digital weight scale ). The sound is not very good...boxy and closed in.

Having to turn volume up on my amp to -15db where normally listening levels are -35db. i need a beer!

 

[Tony L]

There is a very good chance the ancient ADC cart is toast. Do you have any alternatives?

PS 0.7g? I’d be amazed if that was right. The really low tracking weights came in a lot later in the mid to late 70s. That ADC is 1960s surely.

 

[jan tomczak]

There is a very good chance the ancient ADC cart is toast. Do you have any alternatives?

PS 0.7g? I’d be amazed if that was right. The really low tracking weights came in a lot later in the mid to late 70s. That ADC is 1960s surely.

More than likely toast, i've no alternatives...can you recommend?

 

[Craig B]

Without having the stylus knob seated properly the ADC will certainly sound off and have insufficient output level. IM/MI types require precise alignment, with the permalloy tube back of the cantilever precisely within the fixed magnet magnetic field and the coil poles.

BTW, I'd bite your arm off for that cartridge; a JICO SAS on and you'd have one of the best cartridges ever, regardless which generator bit wiggles about.

 

[Tony L]

Interesting, I know nothing about it. I do know the later era of ADCs (XLM, VLM etc) suffered hugely with suspension ageing and collapse. If the 10E is as good as Craig B suggests a Jico stylus could be a good option. 0.7g is crazy low tracking though, it would almost certainly be happier in a fixed shell 3009 S2 Imp, Series III, Infinity Black Widow or something like that. I’d expect mass issues with the standard 12.5g Series II.

 

[jan tomczak]

Ok cool, thanks for the suggestion craig b n tony l, i very much hope this will resolve the problem.

 

[Craig B]

Interesting, I know nothing about it. I do know the later era of ADCs (XLM, VLM etc) suffered hugely with suspension ageing and collapse. If the 10E is as good as Craig B suggests a Jico stylus could be a good option. 0.7g is crazy low tracking though, it would almost certainly be happier in a fixed shell 3009 S2 Imp, Series III, Infinity Black Widow or something like that. I’d expect mass issues with the standard 12.5g Series II.

Good point.

Regardless, unfortunately, it appears that JICO only do replacements for the later ADC models of the 70s and 80s (well, not unfortunate for those folk with later models obviously).

In this case, as Pritchard's early IMs were essentially the mould from which the likes of Nagaoka MP and others were later to be figuratively cast, if something like an MP200, MP300 or MP500 is within budget then one of these might be 'fitting'.

 

[jan tomczak]

Good point. Might be worth contacting JICO as to whether or not their replacements are of the same über-compliance.

Are we talking cartridge with stylus or just stylus alone? i'd be more comfortable with fitting a cart & stylus into the headshell as a package...stylus on it's own would feel like open heart surgery to me.

edit: stylus only then...just googled

 

[Craig B]

Are we talking cartridge with stylus or just stylus alone? i'd be more comfortable with fitting a cart & stylus into the headshell as a package...stylus on it's own would feel like open heart surgery to me.

edit: stylus only then...just googled

Looks like JICO only do replacement styli for later ADC models.

Regardless, Tony's comment about the uber-high compliance of these ADCs making them less than satisfactory for your particular SME arm is valid.

See my post above about spiritual descendants. I suspect that our Tony L might agree with these (he has MP500 on the same tonearm).

If you wish to keep the budget below, say, MP200 range, then there are other options worth considering.

 

[Craig B]

Are we talking cartridge with stylus or just stylus alone? i'd be more comfortable with fitting a cart & stylus into the headshell as a package...stylus on it's own would feel like open heart surgery to me.

edit: stylus only then...just googled

I can see why you might think replacing the stylus on it's own might feel like performing open heart surgery (when, in fact, it is mounting a new cartridge into a headshell that might seem that way to most), specifically with your vintage ADC.

If you have another look at the 10e MK IV instructions, you'll notice that they describe how the stylus assembly "is designed to lock into proper position when brought proximal to permanent magnet of cartridge body". This stylus assembly attachment by magnetic attraction is quite rare with replaceable stylus type phono cartridges, most of which employ a metal shank that slides into an aperture within the body and retained via a friction fit. The part you (or someone prior to you) may have missed is as follows "A slight push to assure seating is advisable" (i.e. a push on the front flat such that it aligns flush with the front flat of the body above).

IOW, according to your photos on here, yours needs tucking in. This is critical to proper function, in particular, because the back end of the stylus cantilever must be within the 4 x coil pole extensions within the cartridge body (i.e. you'll see these should you pull the stylus assembly knob fully off). My guesstimate is that getting the stylus knob seated fully flush will not only allow the cartridge to function (as well as it can given its age) but also take circa 2mm off your stylus overhang measurement.

 

[Tony L]

See my post above about spiritual descendants. I suspect that our Tony L might agree with these (he has MP500 on the same tonearm).

I really like the MP-500. It seems perfectly happy in the 3009 too, sounds great and tracks anything.