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Small speakers that sound like big ones

S-Man said:
So who should I trust?
Somebody with many years research into acoustics and loudspeakers and the peer reviewed qualifications to prove it, or somebody on the internet who posts technically incorrect statements?
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S-Man, I know from your other posts that you're a very knowledgeable bloke in many areas of audio. But that doesn't mean you're right 100% of the time. I posted initially because I didn't agree with something you posted. I tried to do it politely. I didn't mean to offend you. I have no desire to trade insults, so count me out. Life's too short.
 
irb said:
S-Man, I know from your other posts that you're a very knowledgeable bloke in many areas of audio. But that doesn't mean you're right 100% of the time. I posted initially because I didn't agree with something you posted. I tried to do it politely. I didn't mean to offend you. I have no desire to trade insults, so count me out. Life's too short.
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Sorry if it comes across like that. I hope most of my posts show that actually I defo don't think I'm right all the time.
 
Here's the thing, at system resonance the port tuning frequency corresponds with a minimum excursion of the driver for a given output. I'd wager as it is at this minimal required displacement that the port output is at its highest and it may not require much external airborne excitation of the cone at or around this frequency(depending on the Q) from the smaller loudspeakers to produce significant port output which in turn could well support the smaller connected loudspeaker ie it's a giant room driven ABR.
I cant remember where I read a recommendation to short the terminals of unused speakers if in a listening room....electromagnetic braking...?
 
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cooky1257 said:
Here's the thing, at system resonance the port tuning frequency corresponds with a minimum excursion of the driver for a given output. I'd wager as it is at this minimal required displacement that the port output is at its highest and it may not require much external airborne excitation of the cone at or around this frequency(depending on the Q) from the smaller loudspeakers to produce significant port output which in turn could well support the smaller connected loudspeaker ie it's a giant room driven ABR.
I cant remember where I read a recommendation to short the terminals of unused speakers if in a listening room....
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Reading this thread I was thinking irb was right, but what you say sounds plausible. I ought to get the measuring gear out, run some sweeps, and see if I can measure any port output on my spare pair of speakers.
If I've got time I'll do it tomorrow and report back...
 
S-Man said:
So who should I trust?
Somebody with many years research into acoustics and loudspeakers and the peer reviewed qualifications to prove it, or somebody on the internet who posts technically incorrect statements?
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You should trust your judgment.
Some very knowledgeable reviewers are sometimes sponsored and may not be 100% fair with all brands they test and some internet posters might be just relying on their opinion without any scientific background or the other way around, they are totally impartial and performed many trials and errors tests leading to their conclusions.
 
cooky1257 said:
I've often wondered when I see guitars or pianos in system rooms wether they join in.
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Acoustic guitars definitely join in, I had several in my last room at one point and you could clearly hear them smearing the music. For guests who didn't believe me, all I had to do was press Pause midway through a track and the guitars then continued resonating on for a few seconds after the music had stopped! Damping between the fretboard and strings with a t-shirt killed the ringing but I still ended up removing the guitars from the room as my OCD continued to niggle away at me.

Years before that, I got rid of a pine cabinet because the thin ply backboard and drawer bases used to rattle HORRENDOUSLY in sympathy with a particular note I played on my bass guitar.

My ears aren't golden enough to hear the effects of an unused pair of speakers in the room, provided of course they aren't placed in the front half of the room where they are likely to diffract the sound waves coming from the main speakers in a similar way that any item of furniture would. I've done a test, placing a pair of JR149s on the floor behind my listening seat and I honestly cannot hear it affecting the soundstage produced by the main speakers. I recall reading in Jim Smith's Get Better Sound book that he had a client who could identify the deleterious presence of any superfluous transducer in the room all the way down to the one in his cordless phone and digital watch and insisted on removing them from the room before listening!

Serious question for those who can hear the deleterious affects of the woofers in unused speakers, - do the effects persist if you short the terminals (i.e. connect the +ve and -ve together with a wire)? This apparently increases the electromagnetic damping of the woofers and holds them more rigidly in place. And, if the unused speakers have ports, have you also tried plugging them? Any effect?
 
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Well I know this much, I ain't removing my 5.1 surround speakers from my living room every time I want to listen to music, the last vestiges of my dignity remain intact as a result
 
Johnjo said:
Proac DB1, sound huge for small speakers. A lot more thump than Tablettes (ported).
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+1. Lovely sound, expansive soundstage and scale. perhaps somewhat forward compared to a pure BBC legacy type of speaker such as Harbeth or Graham, but the human voice on the DB1s is of that quality. Overall, more lively or vivid than the BBC style. Although, for sheer bass oomph, the Golden Ear BRXs, of similar dimensions have more. But the DB1s suit me and my room better.
 
To further 'confuse' things, many recording studios will have main monitors, midfield and near fields all very close to each other and if they also record for film, multiple surrounds and subs but seem to get by ok.
And further to the ported box idea(which may indicate it's bollocks) some people report the same augmentation when the unused speakers are sealed boxes where there is no 'free' amplification.
Also what of a stereo pair of loudspeakers and the negative influence on each other or as I personally suspect, are all these delayed/stored effects swamped by the much more significant contribution from the room itself?
 
ToTo Man said:
Serious question for those who can hear the deleterious affects of the woofers in unused speakers, - do the effects persist if you short the terminals (i.e. connect the +ve and -ve together with a wire)? This apparently increases the electromagnetic damping of the woofers and holds them more rigidly in place. And, if the unused speakers have ports, have you also tried plugging them? Any effect?
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In around 1970 a Swedish mag had a big loudspeaker test with all speakers in the room. They where aware of the possibility of interaction from unused and unconnected speakers, so they shorted the input on all when not used.

Everyone can try how much the difference between a shorted (amp on or small shorting wire) and unshorted (amp of) speaker does by gently tapping on the woofer cone.

I never heard any ill effects from other speakers in the room.
 
Fatmarley said:
Reading this thread I was thinking irb was right, but what you say sounds plausible. I ought to get the measuring gear out, run some sweeps, and see if I can measure any port output on my spare pair of speakers.
If I've got time I'll do it tomorrow and report back...
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That would be really interesting.

However AFAICS all elastic elements in a room will absorb energy to some extent when sound impinges on them. They will transfer the energy to somewhere else, dissipate some into heat and maybe re-radiate some. They may have resonances that modify the spectrum of what they do. Since I think all elastic elements do this I am struggling to see why an unused loudspeaker should do anything special, compared, for example, to a large lampshade, a canvas painting, a TV screen or leather-covered furniture.
 
John Phillips said:
That would be really interesting.

However AFAICS all elastic elements in a room will absorb energy to some extent when sound impinges on them. They will transfer the energy to somewhere else, dissipate some into heat and maybe re-radiate some. They may have resonances that modify the spectrum of what they do. Since I think all elastic elements do this I am struggling to see why an unused loudspeaker should do anything special, compared, for example, to a large lampshade, a canvas painting, a TV screen or leather-covered furniture.
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I know what you mean. It's a bit like trying to solve perpetual motion I suppose - Assuming that the energy created by one speaker is going to be amplified by another passive speaker. If the drive units were close together and air-tight then I'd expect some output from the port, but the sound pressure in the room is going to be very low compared to inside the speaker enclosure that's actually creating the sound.
 
cooky1257 said:
I've often wondered when I see guitars or pianos in system rooms wether they join in.
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A drum kit definitely does join in, had to take mine out of the music room. It is currently touring the kids houses. Tambourines join in as well, and have been banished.

I am of the opinion that an substantial empty cardboard box etc. will also mess with the sound.
 
Good Morning All,

Interesting thread. I'm fortunate in having a dedicated room for the hi-fi. Kate and I have discussed how we would address the AV side, should we feel the need to go down that route, and any surround sound in support of a TV would go with the TV and remain entirely separate.

Going back to the OP's first post, with no apologies for banging the same 'drum' in different threads, but the effects of the room seem to be a large part of the issue yet remain unaddressed.

If you don't sort the room you aren't listening to the speakers...............

Regards

Richard
 
Fatmarley said:
I know what you mean. It's a bit like trying to solve perpetual motion I suppose - Assuming that the energy created by one speaker is going to be amplified by another passive speaker. If the drive units were close together and air-tight then I'd expect some output from the port, but the sound pressure in the room is going to be very low compared to inside the speaker enclosure that's actually creating the sound.
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I suspect a distinction needs to be made: high-Q resonance vs low-Q resonance.

A high-Q elastic element in a room (a stringed musical instrument for example) may well resonate very well near its resonant frequency. And from what people report, audibly so.

For low enough Q, the resonance probably does not reach audibility. And I think loudspeakers really should get nowhere near the Q of a musical instrument - even a small driver with a reflex port that tries too hard to extract a quart from a pint pot.
 
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Got hold some JPW Minims following Durmbo's comment above. Kinell, these are way better than the Mini Monitors that had no bass - the bass is thumping with these and they sound immense in general, with lots of detail. Looks like I could sell my Wharfedale Diamond 220s at three times the price I paid for these, which I might well do - within half an hour of listening there's a massive improvement, and they seem to be getting better. Vintage is the way to go, eh.

Should say - powered by a Rotel RA-02 amp.

EDIT: spoke too soon, have gone back to the Wharfedales, there's a bit of a boxy/tinny sound with the JPWs that I don't like. Going to see what they sound like together.
 
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