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Sinn Féin's Martin McGuinness dies aged 66

No, I am an extremely boring patent and trade mark attorney with a love of and fascination for history. I went through the (Protestant) state school system in Northern Ireland, where we were taught English history. We were taught nothing of the history of our native sod, perhaps because it was so controversial and perhaps they didn't want to disturb the carefully-nurtured myths of both sides. I was keen to learn more, from both sides of the argument. The process continues.

The James Plantation exercise actually played a major role in losing America for the British. It bred a tough, flinty race, used to breaking ground in hostile territory, and therefore perfect for settlement in the New World. Something like 40% of George Washington's Continental Army were Northern Irishmen, "Scotch-Irish" as the Americans say, and it gave the US quite a few of its Presidents (from memory, 16 of them).

Tones, I had the good fortune when undergoing a state school education in our wee province, that for history 'O' Level (yes it was that long ago), the scope was Irish history from the plantation to the civil war. It has given me a more nuanced view of the history of these islands, and has often got me into heated arguments with less informed co-religionists.
 
She sang "I will survive", and curvetted around Mr McGuinness on roller-skates.

I think you may be onto something here- 'McGuinness, Ma'am, & The Corgi Chorus'. I'm seeing glitz, I'm seeing glamour and you can't go wrong with roller-skating dogs in tutus.
 
History is littered with individuals who have been classified as terrorists or freedom fighters or both depending on perspectives and overall outcomes.

Time to move on.

Nelson Mandela comes to mind. Probably responsible for more bombings that McGuinness.

I still don't feel anything that a person does subsequently excuses such actions.
 
Seems like pfm'rs don't go in for redemption and reformation much. Funny it's always the same bunch. Probably just my liberal elite showing below the hem.
 
Seems like pfm'rs don't go in for redemption and reformation much. Funny it's always the same bunch. Probably just my liberal elite showing below the hem.

There should be no redemption for murder and no subsequent actions no matter how good can negate murder.
 
Fortunately we don't get to choose. As for us I'm not sure you can forgive another person they can only forgive themselves. I wonder if Martin McGuinness forgave himself?
 
I'm sure they regarded themselves at war in much the same way as Islamic extremists do, and as 'soldiers' they adopted tactics that would be more effective than conventional military warfare.

The concept of attacking civilians during war is not new; bombing during the wars etc are testament to that, and of course our own nuclear programme is an extension of that in terms of being targeted at the general population.
 
The deliberate indiscriminate murder of innocent civilians can never be justified imo

Simon

True, but some of them get statues in central London:

220px-Arthur_Harris.jpg
 
I'm late to this, but as a Protestant from Derry who lived in England for many years and now lives in Dublin, Tones's post is one of the best, most balanced I've read in many a year on this topic. Ireland is very complex, and you can't simply say "good guy/bad guy". Too much history on both sides. Looking at the Famine, Bloody Sunday, the bombings across NI and UK mainland, shootings of civilians who were simply doing a job to provide for their families or just innocent bystanders - there is a dark story to most players in the Irish problem. We need to accept and move on. Living in the past forms no base for a positive future.

Either way, very well done to Tones.
 
As the resident Northern Prod (I think) on this site, I am sorry to hear of Martin McGuinness’s death. While I abhor the violence on both sides (and it needs to be remembered that the barbarity of the “Shankill Butchers” made the IRA look like a Sunday school picnic), one can only comprehend it in the light of history, of an island that only wanted to be left alone, and whose only “invasion” of anyone was distinctly beneficial:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_the_Irish_Saved_Civilization

Cahill’s account is exaggerated, but he does have a point. The stunning Stiftskirche in St. Gallen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbey_of_Saint_Gall

was founded by Irish monks and the books of the extraordinary Stiftsbibliothek

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbey_library_of_Saint_Gall

go back to the manuscripts of those early monks.

The Plantation of Ulster, the most Gaelic of the Irish provinces, by James I was the start of the troubles in the North that continue to this day. Most of all, the combination of English callousness during the potato famines of the 1840s (the only English who come out of it with any credit are the Quakers, who mounted the world’s first international relief effort) and the Partition of Ireland in 1921, with the establishment in the North of “a Protestant Parliament for a Protestant people” set the scene for what was to come. That Protestant parliament (“No surrender!” “Not an inch!”) set out to discriminate against Catholics in all walks of life, to ensure that the Protestants would remain top dog. It did it in jobs, in housing, in gerrymandering of voting areas (in Mr. McGuinness’s Derry, the boundaries guaranteed that a predominantly Catholic city would always have a Protestant-dominated city council).

Attempts at peaceful protest (inspired by Martin Luther King) were met with Protestant violence, which led to the return of the then moribund IRA and the “Troubles”.

McGuinness and Adams were ardent Republicans (Adams in particular is Republican “royalty” – his father was interned during the Second World War when the Germans were trying to encourage insurrection in the North). However, they both realised that the old Republican romantic attachment to the gun and the bomb wasn’t going to work – “the bullet and the ballot” as Adams said. Both had the credence within the movement to push most of a notoriously fractious movement in a different direction. The British, to their credit, recognised this, opened negotiations and the result (with the help of the Irish government and, finally, the recognition of the Prods) was the Good Friday Agreement, and peace. Northern Ireland is still far from perfect, but it has come a long way.

I can sympathise with people who lost friends and acquaintances in IRA atrocities – I have too, and my mother narrowly avoided death in a bomb blast in central Belfast. The history doesn’t justify these atrocities in any way, but they are ultimately the products of much misguided thinking and acting by politicians and rulers who suffered none of the consequences of their stupidity – it’s the ordinary folk, on both sides of the divide, who, as usual, get to do the suffering and dying. As the Queen memorably said in her speech at her Dublin reception a few years ago, in retrospect, there are things that the British would have done differently, or not at all.

So, where do we go from here? I’d like to see reunification, but many of my countrymen are very much against that. And Ireland desperately doesn’t want three-quarters of a million unwilling Unionists. I think that Adams and McGuinness recognised this and were happy to kick that particular can down the road. Brexit has thrown a massive spanner in the works, for both parts of Ireland. There are big problems to be solved, but the joy is that nobody, apart from a few fanatics on both sides, wants to go back to war over it. And part of the credit for that belongs to Martin McGuinness. RIP.
Superb post Tones. I can only add that the perception in the UK of what happened during the troubles was, and continues to be, hugely coloured by some of the most overt peacetime news management seen in the post war UK.
 


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