Sinn Féin's Martin McGuinness dies aged 66

[tones]

Presumably, all Ireland was Catholic before the influx of Scottish immigrants, but it seemed that the Ulster troubles only came to the fore after 1921; a fair bit after, too. My history is hazy on this, though religious sectarianism often seems to manifest itself in nationalism.

Correct. It was James I (James VI of Scotland) who sought to change the character of Ulster by means of the Plantation, an early exercise in ethnic cleansing, which didn't quite work out (the implants needed the natives, and the result was a peculiar mixture). James actually wanted people of the Established Religion, not the Calvinist Scots, who came anyway, and for a time were as persecuted as the Catholics. They used to sail to Scotland on Sundays where they could legally hear a Church of Scotland sermon! Ironically many of the early heroes of the fight for Irish independence, such as Wolfe Tone, were Protestants.

The mass emigration to the USA in the wake of the potato famine led to the rise of the Fenian Movement in the USA, the direct forerunner of the IRA. Eamon de Valera, the only IRB commandant to escape execution in the aftermath of the 1916 rising was born in the USA (one reason why he escaped execution).

An outstanding account of the Plantation is Jonathan Bardon's "The Plantation of Ulster".

 

[Mullardman]

History is littered with individuals who have been classified as terrorists or freedom fighters or both depending on perspectives and overall outcomes.

Time to move on.

 

[twotone]

Great post Tones.

 

[muzzer]

Excellent news.

 

[Mike Reed]

Correct. It was James I (James VI of Scotland) who sought to change the character of Ulster by means of the Plantation, an early exercise in ethnic cleansing, which didn't quite work out (the implants needed the natives, and the result was a peculiar mixture). James actually wanted people of the Established Religion, not the Calvinist Scots, who came anyway, and for a time were as persecuted as the Catholics. They used to sail to Scotland on Sundays where they could legally hear a Church of Scotland sermon! Ironically many of the early heroes of the fight for Irish independence, such as Wolfe Tone, were Protestants.

The mass emigration to the USA in the wake of the potato famine led to the rise of the Fenian Movement in the USA, the direct forerunner of the IRA. Eamon de Valera, the only IRB commandant to escape execution in the aftermath of the 1916 rising was born in the USA (one reason why he escaped execution).

An outstanding account of the Plantation is Jonathan Bardon's "The Plantation of Ulster".

TONES, are you a historian, or do you simply have a penchant for Irish history? I'm familiar with the more recent American connection, but not the James 1 Plantation exercise.

 

[fay spook]

It was only a little while later that we went through the civil war and a king, then onto James II "No Surrender" and the French again!

If Irish history is fascinating (I am not making light of any suffering, I am just observing as a series of events), the French at war with England is even more prolonged and sustained.

Sorry in interrupt the thread.

 

[Lee T]

He was a terrorist who murdered children, no matter what the cause, this should not be tolerated on any level, I doubt the families of those he murdered would agree he did more good than bad.

 

[MVV]

He was a terrorist who murdered children, no matter what the cause, this should not be tolerated on any level, I doubt the families of those he murdered would agree he did more good than bad.

Thank God you are a Lollipop Man. That incredible ability to maintain such a narrow focus must really make you a very safe one.

 

[droodzilla]

I can't stand the woman but Theresa May found the right balance in my view:

While I can never condone the path he took in the earlier part of his life, Martin McGuinness ultimately played a defining role in leading the republican movement away from violence.

In doing so, he made an essential and historic contribution to the extraordinary journey of Northern Ireland from conflict to peace.

A fair and factual assessment that acknowledges his past crimes.

 

[tones]

TONES, are you a historian, or do you simply have a penchant for Irish history? I'm familiar with the more recent American connection, but not the James 1 Plantation exercise.

No, I am an extremely boring patent and trade mark attorney with a love of and fascination for history. I went through the (Protestant) state school system in Northern Ireland, where we were taught English history. We were taught nothing of the history of our native sod, perhaps because it was so controversial and perhaps they didn't want to disturb the carefully-nurtured myths of both sides. I was keen to learn more, from both sides of the argument. The process continues.

The James Plantation exercise actually played a major role in losing America for the British. It bred a tough, flinty race, used to breaking ground in hostile territory, and therefore perfect for settlement in the New World. Something like 40% of George Washington's Continental Army were Northern Irishmen, "Scotch-Irish" as the Americans say, and it gave the US quite a few of its Presidents (from memory, 16 of them).

 

[Lee T]

Thank God you are a Lollipop Man. That incredible ability to maintain such a narrow focus must really make you a very safe one.

Nice to have my little stalker back.
Ahem,, Crossing guard

 

[linnfomaniac83]

No, I am an extremely boring patent and trade mark attorney with a love of and fascination for history. I went through the (Protestant) state school system in Northern Ireland, where we were taught English history. We were taught nothing of the history of our native sod, perhaps because it was so controversial and perhaps they didn't want to disturb the carefully-nurtured myths of both sides. I was keen to learn more, from both sides of the argument. The process continues.

The James Plantation exercise actually played a major role in losing America for the British. It bred a tough, flinty race, used to breaking ground in hostile territory, and therefore perfect for settlement in the New World. Something like 40% of George Washington's Continental Army were Northern Irishmen, "Scotch-Irish" as the Americans say, and it gave the US quite a few of its Presidents (from memory, 16 of them).

You're far from boring. My youngest brother, a sales executive also has a penchant for world history, he's fascinating to talk to.

 

[Mike Reed]

Purely by coincidence, Tones, I flicked through my extensive and normally unwatched recordings this evening (bugger all on TV) and found a summer '14 history prog. on Charles 1 through to the reformation.

Fascinating about his 'three kingdoms, his father's Plantation (around Derry, I gather) and the Newry Proclamation setting off the antipathy and bloodshed which followed (1641?) The English civil war had been festering a couple of years by then, too. The first blood-letting, it seemed, was Protestant blood; avenged tenfold at least by Cromwell about a decade later.

Wasn't aware before that the Irish troubles were nearly four centuries old, although I knew of Cromwell's excursions in Drogheda and Wexford (where I've been).

 

[twotone]

The Irish troubles have been going 800 long years.

As the song goes-"For 800 years we have fought you without fear"

 

[gassor]

It bred a tough, flinty race, used to breaking ground in hostile territory, and therefore perfect for settlement in the New World. Something like 40% of George Washington's Continental Army were Northern Irishmen, "Scotch-Irish" as the Americans say, and it gave the US quite a few of its Presidents (from memory, 16 of them).

And also the "tough flinty race" provided the foundations of what became the KKK. Scottish immigrants did their fair share; clansman became klansman and the fiery crosses were based on a ceremony in Shetland, the Up Helly Aa.

PS I only found out recently that Michael Collins was the seventh son of a seventh son, something Georgie Fame sung about eons ago.

 

[Mullardman]

My distant ancestors came from the heart of Derbyshire around 12-1300 A.D.
A branch of them became established in Waterford, Ireland around 1600 I believe.

I have no idea what.. if anything this has to do with the present discussion. Just thought I'd share it.

Mull

 

[Cloth-Ears]

What did he die of ?

Was he pulled apart by chimpanzees ?

-------------

When he met with the Queen, he asked her how she was and she replied, well I'm still here

 

[MVV]

She said "well I'm still alive".

 

[Joe Hutch]

She sang "I will survive", and curvetted around Mr McGuinness on roller-skates.

 

[tones]

Wasn't aware before that the Irish troubles were nearly four centuries old, although I knew of Cromwell's excursions in Drogheda and Wexford (where I've been).

Actually rather older, courtesy of this gentleman:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_de_Clare,_2nd_Earl_of_Pembroke

His alleged tomb is in Dublin's Christchurch Cathedral, but that is disputed. The Normans built castles all over the place, the most famous being just up the road from Belfast:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrickfergus_Castle

At the time, Belfast (from Béal Feirste, "rivermouth of the sandbanks") was just a minor settlement.

Cromwell's excursions were merely a continuation of the English Civil War, rather than an assault on Irish Catholicism. Sir Arthur Ashton, commander of Drogheda, was a Royalist and an English Catholic. Most of his officers were English. Poor Arthur was reportedly beaten to death with his own wooden leg.