Single-ended Triode Discussion

[sjs]

I came across this thread while doing a search and as a long time SET user it seemed interesting, though more so at the start than later.

My news is that the 2a3, or the 6.3v versions 6B4G and Soviet 6C4C, are not just output valves - they make stonkingly good line stages. I've just completed one for a guy who needs a low gain, low output impedance DHT line stage to feed a 10K input impedance amp. It sounds so addictively good - neutral, smooth, detailed, dynamic - that I'm building another one for myself as fast as possible. There are some 2a3 based preamps about, but driven by a 6SN7 which makes no sense to me - it's not needed or wanted. There was the Tram 2 2a3 preamp which gets a glowing review here. But it's a rare beast. It's not too difficult to build a 6B4G/6C4C line stage and it's a keeper for sure.

Diy HiFi Supply Tram Mk2 DHT OTL Preamplifier Take the direct route to the heart and soul of your music. Review By Clive Meakins

Diy HiFi Supply Tram Mk2 DHT OTL Preamplifier Take the direct route to the heart and soul of your music. Review By Clive Meakins - Enjoy the Music.com Review Magazine

www.enjoythemusic.com

I had a couple of Tram 2 preamps about 10 years ago, which I reworked with Rod Coleman regs and a few other tweaks. One used 2A3 and the other used 45. The 2A3 was nice, the 45 was stunning. They use the dht as the gain valve in a Kimmel super mu circuit with a 6AS7 as the load.
I also had a 26 preamp which had a Lundahl step-down transformer on the output. That was a lovely thing.
How are you using the 2A3 in your pre, RC coupled, LC coupled or transformer coupled output?

 

[Bodhi]

If I was buying some large form factor horn speakers, I'd drive them with these lovely 10w Wavac 300b mono's

 

[jtgofish]

Could you explain please the reason for needing an amp with no negative feedback for compression drivers?

You don't need low or zero negative feedback but in my experience amplifiers like that sound best with high efficiency drivers/horns.You will find that most horn loudspeaker owners prefer amps like that-be they SETs or SS.The designer of Dartzeel amps and Nelson Pass have spoken in detail about the use of negative feedback and how it impacts on sound.With more "normal' [ie less revealing] speakers it is not so critical.And some speakers benefit from amps with more negative feedback.I have owned amps with variable negative feedback and playing with them is very informative.

 

[les24preludes]

I had a couple of Tram 2 preamps about 10 years ago, which I reworked with Rod Coleman regs and a few other tweaks. One used 2A3 and the other used 45. The 2A3 was nice, the 45 was stunning. They use the dht as the gain valve in a Kimmel super mu circuit with a 6AS7 as the load.
I also had a 26 preamp which had a Lundahl step-down transformer on the output. That was a lovely thing.
How are you using the 2A3 in your pre, RC coupled, LC coupled or transformer coupled output?

Hello there. I regularly use 26 as a preamp valve, though haven't tried it with a Lundahl. I have a LL1660/18mA so I'll try that. I suspect a 10Y would be a trifle better, or maybe different, so I should try that too with a step-down. The 45 is one valve I've never owned. Silly maybe. I do use Coleman regs for all my DHT builds. The 2a3 right now is a simple gain stage, 10K resistor load, 1.5K cathode with DC Link bypass, 15mA.

 

[GT]

If I was buying some large form factor horn speakers, I'd drive them with these lovely 10w Wavac 300b mono's

Those are class A2 designs with pretty average transformers. They look OK but they are really nothing special sonically, in fact I found about 5 design faults with the stereo version about 11 years ago when I was visiting a friend in the audio business and helping to get his Wavac 300B stereo amplifier working correctly. Considering its price I couldn't believe how poor it was.

 

[Avinunca]

SET's just ain't Hi-Fi.... that simple.

Obviously, that's my opinion as well.

Chris

My experiences listening to acoustic and

 

[Bodhi]

Those are class A2 designs with pretty average transformers. They look OK but they are really nothing special sonically, in fact I found about 5 design faults with the stereo version about 11 years ago when I was visiting a friend in the audio business and helping to get his Wavac 300B stereo amplifier working correctly. Considering its price I couldn't believe how poor it was.

Thanks for your feedback. Wow, interesting. Then maybe Lamm ML2.2 mono's, L2.1 Reference preamp and LP2.1 phono pre?

 

[Avinunca]

I find this sort of debate or in part slanging match quite tiresome. To me it's like Fred saying French food is the best there is and Harry saying that's ridiculous - look at the amount of cream. Indonesian is the best. Too spicy for some?
It's about personal taste. I long ago decided I preferred the sound of class A amplifiers. I remember maybe 20 years ago walking into the Naim room at the Bristol show and beating a hasty retreat. I hated the sound - maybe it was class B - who cares.
I find I like the sound of amplifiers with the minimum of components in the signal path. The best I ever heard was my Border Patrol 300b clone. My speakers were too insensitive so the bass wasn't strong but the mid range made me believe the singers were in the room. It sounded to me incredibly pure. How does that work?
I like First Watt amplifiers too.
Nelson Pass said something like the best amplifier for you is the one you like to hear the most. It may be the one that would most please the people who worship technical specification and measurement but it may be the one with plenty of 2nd harmonic distortion. You can argue all day about which one's the best but it's subjective.

 

[Bodhi]

I like First Watt amplifiers too.
Nelson Pass said something like the best amplifier for you is the one you like to hear the most. It may be the one that would most please the people who worship technical specification and measurement but it may be the one with plenty of 2nd harmonic distortion. You can argue all day about which one's the best but it's subjective.

The main issue with First Watt atleast currently is their lack of a matching line stage and phono stage. I understand however that NP is planning to release a mono version of the SIT4.

 

[awkwardbydesign]

Hello there. I regularly use 26 as a preamp valve, though haven't tried it with a Lundahl. I have a LL1660/18mA so I'll try that. I suspect a 10Y would be a trifle better, or maybe different, so I should try that too with a step-down. The 45 is one valve I've never owned. Silly maybe. I do use Coleman regs for all my DHT builds. The 2a3 right now is a simple gain stage, 10K resistor load, 1.5K cathode with DC Link bypass, 15mA.

I used Lundahls in my #26,* sounded lovely, had a bit of a roll-off from about 10k, and a peak at 30k. It went as my wife couldn't cope with all the valve stuff.
* Simon (SJS) helped me with the build.

 

[geetee1972]

SET's just ain't Hi-Fi.... that simple.

....and HiFi isn't music so there we go, we resolved the problem.

 

[Salamander]

Thanks for your feedback. Wow, interesting. Then maybe Lamm ML2.2 mono's, L2.1 Reference preamp and LP2.1 phono pre?

Now you're talking.

 

[marktr]

I just spent an hour writing here on my experiences with SET’s, then deleted it - didn’t want to bore anyone!
Synthesising: IMHO, Single Ended Triodes are no ‘better’ or ‘worse’ than Solid State or anything else. I’ve owned SET’s, SEP’s PP, SS and Class D over the past 55 years, most sounding mediocre at best, a small handful presenting music quite exquisitely. Trafomatic (8w WE 300B), Shindo (10w Single Ended Tetrode) and KONDO (32w PP) are without a shadow of a doubt, at the top of the list, presenting music with such ‘atmosphere’! Nothing compares!
However, and quite surprisingly, we have ended our ‘hifi journey’ with a £119.99 Tri-path amp in a moderately priced Audio Note system. It sounds ‘staggeringly’ good! After 55 years, we simply can’t fault it. WOW!

 

[Juancho]

I just spent an hour writing here on my experiences with SET’s, then deleted it - didn’t want to bore anyone!
Synthesising: IMHO, Single Ended Triodes are no ‘better’ or ‘worse’ than Solid State or anything else. I’ve owned SET’s, SEP’s PP, SS and Class D over the past 55 years, most sounding mediocre at best, a small handful presenting music quite exquisitely. Trafomatic (8w WE 300B), Shindo (10w Single Ended Tetrode) and KONDO (32w PP) are without a shadow of a doubt, at the top of the list, presenting music with such ‘atmosphere’! Nothing compares!
However, and quite surprisingly, we have ended our ‘hifi journey’ with a £119.99 Tri-path amp in a moderately priced Audio Note system. It sounds ‘staggeringly’ good! After 55 years, we simply can’t fault it. WOW!

YMMV but I think you ended up in a strange place! I recently compared my own Tri Path amp-a Charlize-which had a great reputation a few years ago-with a breathed on A and R A60, a pair of Starkrimson GAN amps and my SE amps-Mastersound 845PSEs, and modified Cayin 845 SE Reference. Speakers used were Klipsch Cornwall IVs and Troels Gravesen own build Illuminator 4s. The Tri Path sounds very good on the Klipschs particularly-104db claimed sensitivity but I'd prefer the A and R A60 to it any day. Then the Starkrimson monos add a huge layer of dynamics and musicality that the those two don't. Finally either of the SE valve amps add yet another layer of detail, insight and soundstage. The Starkrimsons get to around 90% of the SE performance and are great summer amps for me or permanent amps for those worried about heat and power consumption. The A and R provides a small system back up in the lounge but are increasingly left out in favour of the Starkrimsons these days. The Tri Path is back in storage. It is a great amp. It flatters to deceive in many ways but really can't compete with the others I have.

 

[marktr]

I don’t think we’ve ended up in ‘a strange place’ - it’s just ‘a different place’.
Our T-amp is far more rewarding to listen to than most of the amps we’ve ever owned. Sure, it can’t compete with the more ‘exotic’ stuff previously mentioned, but that doesn’t mean it’s not a great amp in its own right. System are so much about a personal preference, it’s not a ‘one size fits all’ scenario.

 

[Juancho]

I don’t think we’ve ended up in ‘a strange place’ - it’s just ‘a different place’.
Our T-amp is far more rewarding to listen to than most of the amps we’ve ever owned. Sure, it can’t compete with the more ‘exotic’ stuff previously mentioned, but that doesn’t mean it’s not a great amp in its own right. System are so much about a personal preference, it’s not a ‘one size fits all’ scenario.

Hence my 'YMMV'. But what you're saying seems contradictory in that the 'Tripath is 'more rewarding .........(but) 'can't compete with the more 'exotic' stuff.'

 

[marktr]

Hence my 'YMMV'. But what you're saying seems contradictory in that the 'Tripath is 'more rewarding .........(but) 'can't compete with the more 'exotic' stuff.'

“Our T-amp is far more rewarding to listen to than most of the amps we’ve ever owned. Sure, it can’t compete with the more ‘exotic stuff mentioned …,,,,,,,,,,,”.

 

[Juancho]

“Our T-amp is far more rewarding to listen to than most of the amps we’ve ever owned. Sure, it can’t compete with the more ‘exotic stuff mentioned …,,,,,,,,,,,”.

I'm neither arguing nor splitting semantics, just saying that I (and probably a majority of people here) would not compromise on sound quality particularly if other factors like finance were not an issue. If you said that those other better amps ran hot, were too big, consumed lots of energy I'd direct you at a Starkrimson (or possibly other GAN amp which I have not tried) but you're not citing any of those factors

 

[marktr]

We are happy to compromise on sound quality in our old age. At the end of the day, it’s not such a big deal loosing out on the n’th degrees of finesse etc, etc. And, not having too much money invested in hifi is very freeing.

 

[GT]

We are happy to compromise on sound quality in our old age. At the end of the day, it’s not such a big deal loosing out on the n’th degrees of finesse etc, etc. And, not having too much money invested in hifi is very freeing.

Some of us are old, well if mid 60's is old, but I for one are not interested in compromising on sound quality, so your comments only relate to your circumstances and could be misleading to others. Anyone thinking a class D or T-amp sounds similar to a good SET amp needs to get their hearing checked out because the two technologies are at opposite ends of the high fidelity spectrum.