Should there be a consequence for vaccine refusers?

[russel]

The fact is, I've no idea where this is going. All I know is, is that I've started drawing lines and I'm finding that more lines need to be drawn.

In that case you won’t be doing very much, using transport will require use of energy which could of harmed animals. If you exist it will be at the expense of something else, life is a damage limitation exercise but you cannot avoid damage.

 

[Dogberry]

Whether a thing makes sense to most people is neither here nor there. Most people think it's okay to eat meat and drink milk!

What you say about historical medical developments is interesting, and something I've been considering. When I became a vegan, I decided that the day I made the decision to become vegan would be the reference date going forwards. I still had some CoffeeMate in the cupboard as well as some chocolate, which I allowed myself to consume since I'd purchased them before decision-day. The same goes for my leather trouser belt. I bought it years ago and because I've got a history with it and it pre-dates decision-day, I've decided to keep it. With regards to the covid vaccines, the animal testing took place after decision-day so that's why I'm able to be more definite about my preference not to be vaccinated. I've still got some paracetamol in the kitchen which I bought before decision-day and I suspect I'll finish the pack off in due course.

But going forwards, I may become even stricter with things. I may well decide never to wear that belt again, I may well decide never to buy paracetamol again and I may well choose to refuse medical treatments that aren't vegan-friendly, as it were. Becoming vegan has turned out to be a process as much as it was a decision as I had no idea this sort of issue would crop up within the context of being a vegan. If I'm to draw lines elsewhere, I expect I'll be drawing them in a way that consolidates and expands my applied and, seemingly evolving understanding of what it means for me to a vegan.

I admire the rigour of your decision.Your doing what you can where is practically possible.
From the vegan society
"A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment."
Primarily involving lessening animal cruelty
where you can make a choice regarding eating or
wearing animal products.

 

[windhoek]

I admire the rigour of your decision.Your doing what you can where is practically possible.
From the vegan society
"A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment."
Primarily involving lessening animal cruelty
where you can make a choice regarding eating or
wearing animal products.

Wow, that's a pretty good definition of what it means to be vegan! I'm sure there are other vegans who uphold those values in a much more active sense. All I can say is, I've made a start

 

[windhoek]

In that case you won’t be doing very much, using transport will require use of energy which could of harmed animals. If you exist it will be at the expense of something else, life is a damage limitation exercise but you cannot avoid damage.

To quote myself from a moment ago: I'm sure there are other vegans who uphold those [vegan] values in a much more active sense. All I can say is, I've made a start.

 

[avole]

No. Why victimise the intelligent.

 

[HarryCrumb]

It is very concerning that there are a lot of people refusing a jab for various reasons. Whilst i do not understand why they would take such a risk and I would not endorse compulsory vaccinations, should they be banned from travel abroad, have limited local movement and have other restrictions imposed?

Christ no. Sounds nightmarish to me. If a person doesn't want another person injecting something in to their body, I find it disturbing that people have have an issue with that.

 

[avole]

Agree with the above, but perhaps should be spread wider to include those of us who like injecting drugs into our bodies - mind you, only tried the heroin once that I remember ...

 

[Rob998]

Wow, that's a pretty good definition of what it means to be vegan! I'm sure there are other vegans who uphold those values in a much more active sense. All I can say is, I've made a start

So you’re happy to put those around you at risk of a highly contagious and nasty (I speak from personal experience here) and proven deadly virus, just to salve your own sensibilities, whilst wrapping it up in a cloak of concern for the well being of the planet?

Well, I suppose humans are responsible for a great deal of damage, so if you kill a few of them you’ll be able to justify it to yourself as doing the planet a service...

 

[Spike]

And the exploitation of bees will prohibit the consumption of any food. And plants are living too.

 

[Brian]

It is very concerning that there are a lot of people refusing a jab for various reasons. Whilst i do not understand why they would take such a risk and I would not endorse compulsory vaccinations, should they be banned from travel abroad, have limited local movement and have other restrictions imposed?

No.

 

[windhoek]

So you’re happy to put those around you at risk of a highly contagious and nasty (I speak from personal experience here) and proven deadly virus, just to salve your own sensibilities, whilst wrapping it up in a cloak of concern for the well being of the planet?

Well, I suppose humans are responsible for a great deal of damage, so if you kill a few of them you’ll be able to justify it to yourself as doing the planet a service...

I don't accept the uncharitable terms of your summation: "salve your own sensibilities..." and "wrapping it up in a cloak of concern for the wellbeing of the planet"? Surely such phrases belong in a novel!

As for risk, I wear a mask when I'm supposed to. But the thing is, it seems as though being vaccinated doesn't guarantee that you can't catch covid and also that you can't pass it on. It would appear that it's still highly transmissible. I'm no virologist so I can only repeat what I've heard on the news. All of which is to say I may not, in fact, pose a greater risk to anyone than anybody else out there when it comes to transmitting the virus.

 

[gintonic]

tagging like crims on bail, would stop the unprotected from leaving home and killing others.

 

[gustavm]

As for risk, I wear a mask when I'm supposed to. But the thing is, it seems as though being vaccinated doesn't guarantee that you can't catch covid and also that you can't pass it on. It would appear that it's still highly transmissible. I'm no virologist so I can only repeat what I've heard on the news. All of which is to say I may not, in fact, pose a greater risk to anyone than anybody else out there when it comes to transmitting the virus.

As we all know, there are no 100% guarantees for any one individual, but a few weeks after first vaccination you are much less likely to suffer moderate or severe symptoms, and of vital importance to containing this virus there is now strong evidence (as of a week or so ago) you are considerably less likely to infect others.

At the moment, vaccinated or not, we need to continue to wear masks and follow painful restrictions on our activities. Once lockdown is lifted and a more normal life returns, I hope that those who have refused the vaccine because of principle are also principled enough to recognise the potential risk to others that their choice implies, and continue to constrain their activities.

 

[windhoek]

As we all know, there are no 100% guarantees for any one individual, but a few weeks after first vaccination you are much less likely to suffer moderate or severe symptoms, and of vital importance to containing this virus there is now strong evidence (as of a week or so ago) you are considerably less likely to infect others.

At the moment, vaccinated or not, we need to continue to wear masks and follow painful restrictions on our activities. Once lockdown is lifted and a more normal life returns, I hope that those who have refused the vaccine because of principle are also principled enough to recognise the potential risk to others that their choice implies, and continue to constrain their activities.

However you look at it, I did not and do not take my decision lightly and the potential consequences thereof. As vaccination continues, I'm probably going to find myself among a small but voluntarily vulnerable group of people.

 

[Rob998]

I don't accept the uncharitable terms of your summation: "salve your own sensibilities..." and "wrapping it up in a cloak of concern for the wellbeing of the planet"? Surely such phrases belong in a novel!

As for risk, I wear a mask when I'm supposed to. But the thing is, it seems as though being vaccinated doesn't guarantee that you can't catch covid and also that you can't pass it on. It would appear that it's still highly transmissible. I'm no virologist so I can only repeat what I've heard on the news. All of which is to say I may not, in fact, pose a greater risk to anyone than anybody else out there when it comes to transmitting the virus.

“Uncharitable”, says the man refusing to protect his fellow human beings because he feels more sorry for a lab rat or bunny than the 110,000 people who have died, just in the UK, from this vile virus.

Self righteous selfishness in the absolute extreme, yet he’s able to justify it to himself because Vegan. Pathetic.

@gintonic Tags are a good idea, anyone wearing one sets off an alarm when they try to enter a shop, restaurant, bar or public transport etc, etc.

 

[gustavm]

However you look at it, I did not and do not take my decision lightly and the potential consequences thereof. As vaccination continues, I'm probably going to find myself among a small but voluntarily vulnerable group of people.

Windhoek, from your previous posts you sound like a decent & thoughtful guy, so I'm sure you will. (Take care I mean....think you must have edited your post which put this sentence out of context)

 

[windhoek]

“Uncharitable”, says the man refusing to protect his fellow human beings because he feels more sorry for a lab rat or bunny than the 110,000 people who have died, just in the UK, from this vile virus.

Self righteous selfishness in the absolute extreme, yet he’s able to justify it to himself because Vegan. Pathetic.

@gintonic Tags are a good idea, anyone wearing one sets off an alarm when they try to enter a shop, restaurant, bar or public transport etc, etc.

I guess there's nothing else to add - you've summed up your position well.

 

[Rob998]

I guess there's nothing else to add - you've summed up your position well.

In the last 3 weeks I have lost a favourite aunt, and 2 of my closest friends have lost parents to Covid. I have been off work for 3 months and I’m still not fit to return, so I’m not going to apologise for finding your position disgusting.

 

[windhoek]

In the last 3 weeks I have lost a favourite aunt, and 2 of my closest friends have lost parents to Covid. I have been off work for 3 months and I’m still not fit to return, so I’m not going to apologise for finding your position disgusting.

Fair dos, if that's where you're at it's where you're at.

 

[Marchbanks]

Is there any clear data yet on whether vaccinated people can still be infectious?

From what I have read, some say it is ‘theoretical’, some say ‘about 60% will be’, some say ‘it’s probable’ and some say ‘some.’

So ‘no’ would appear to be the answer to your question.