Russ Andrews fined by the Advertising Standards Authority

[Evil Emperor]

if you sell someone a bar of lead and tell them it's gold should they not be entitled to their money back whenever they want- you have actually committed the crime of fraud after all. Is false advertising any less repugnant.

Even the Sale of Goods Act limits the possibility of action to 180 days. After that time, if you bought lead thinking it was gold, it's nothing to do with Trading Standards.

The ASA ruling does allow people to challenge RA under 'fit for purpose' in the Sale of Goods Act, because it calls into question whether it is able to do the job it was made for. But only for 180 days after the purchase.

The reality is that RA will handle this in exactly the same way L'Oreal handled the same ASA ruling against the claims made for its Wrinkle De-Crease (with Boswelox). The ads changed microscopically to fit the ASA's demands, the product is still on sale and there was no army of wrinkly women demanding refunds for their expensive and pointless face cream.

 

[dim_span]

happens all over .... even governments sometimes get involved

Hong Kong bankers discovered some gold bars shipped from the United States were actually tungsten with gold plating. This is the exact same Modus Operandi as the silver clad zinc dimes from 45 years ago

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=145758.0

 

[sq225917]

Yet but if we promote the ruling enough he may decide to start a sea change in the industry by choosing to prove all the claims he makes for his cables, rather than simply cutting his hyperbole to fit the legal framework as required by the ASA

Imagine that, if only takes one manufacturer to prove their claims for all the others to be highlighted as liars and charlatans.

 

[Basil]

Yet but if we promote the ruling enough he may decide to start a sea change in the industry by choosing to prove all the claims he makes for his cables, rather than simply cutting his hyperbole to fit the legal framework as required by the ASA

Imagine that, if only takes one manufacturer to prove their claims for all the others to be highlighted as liars and charlatans.

If he could prove his claims about the stuff he sells, he'd have done it long ago.

 

[ter]

Now, when you clime down from Mt Pontification, realise that my point has precisely nothing to do with wear and tear, but that what you demand (a lifetime refund policy) is fundamentally toxic to business. Of any kind.

Let's take another example, that absolutely does not have wear and tear issues. You buy a 1000g gold bar on the bullion market today, at $1360 per oz. The bullion market allows a lifetime refund policy. In five years time, the price of bullion has crashed to $400 per oz, but because you have a lifetime refund policy, you go to your vendor and demand a refund at $1360 per ounce.

Now, picture this in your industry. The same thing applies, whatever the business is. As I said earlier, you are simply guaranteeing abuse by the public. Dumb. really, really dumb.

You betray your argument on several points.
(1) It is a time honored undestanding of the gold and share market etc that they are speculative markets. The seller knows that and I IMPORTANTLY the buyer KNOWS!

 

[Patrick Dixon]

Imagine that, if only takes one manufacturer to prove their claims for all the others to be highlighted as liars and charlatans.

Imagine that. Car adverts that say "This car has 4 wheels and will do 70mph on the motorway" .... and no watch threads in the off-topic because they all "Tell the time".

 

[Evil Emperor]

Yet but if we promote the ruling enough he may decide to start a sea change in the industry by choosing to prove all the claims he makes for his cables, rather than simply cutting his hyperbole to fit the legal framework as required by the ASA

Imagine that, if only takes one manufacturer to prove their claims for all the others to be highlighted as liars and charlatans.

Very unlikely. The trouble is if he had to validate all his claims, he might have to cut whole swathes out of his catalogue because they don't support validation. Far easier to get rid of anything that demands 'proof'.

Like most industries, unless something governmental steps in to legislate - which only tends to happen when a lot of people die or are damaged - people sweep demands for credibility under the carpet.

If someone starts calling others charlatans, they will be derided and destroyed by their rivals. Even if they're right.

 

[Evil Emperor]

You betray your argument on several points.
(1) It is a time honored undestanding of the gold and share market etc that they are speculative markets. The seller knows that and I IMPORTANTLY the buyer KNOWS!

This doesn't matter. You can pull any example from any sales environment and exactly the same thing applies. If you offered a lifetime refund policy, it is immediately open to people using it to demand refunds for products they no longer like or want.

What company would engage in a policy that actively invited such abuse? The Sale of Goods Act puts a 180 day limit on claims for refund, and that's pretty much the best charter for consumers out there.

Are you claiming that hi-fi people are so dim they need more than six months to make up their minds about whether something works or not?

 

[sq225917]

EvilE, Of course it's unlikely that he would choose to attempt to validate any of his product claims, much easier just to brush the whole concept under the table and make up pretend customer quotes to promote your product without fear of being asked to justify their flights of fancy. That's what i'd do if I was him.

 

[ter]

if you sell someone a bar of lead and tell them it's gold should they not be entitled to their money back whenever they want- you have actually committed the crime of fraud after all. Is false advertising any less repugnant.[/QUOTE) .

Not only in the actual act of advertising as we know it...but 'extended false advertising' at the point of sale.... IS the crime, further committed. Perhaps we need a worldwide Wiki- HI Fi- leaks Website!.Would THAT clean up some of the 'acts' we see going on. Quite recently there was an explosive full review on an American site of a very expensive piece of equipment. At least they had the legal balls to cover themselves and have it tested in several accredited test labs to further prove their claims of duplicity, taking place. It was found a maker's lesser priced product - was purchased on the wholesale markets ,then 'tinkered with and quietly re-badged' under their own brand, using the internal complete 'guts' of the original product . The reviewers took great care publishing very long and exhaustive test performance charts of both versions of the said equipment. The 're-badger' apparently privately obtained the units and 'tarted them up' without all trade deals done with the original manufacturer. The 're- badger' besides claiming it as their 'very own new release machine' ...were insisting it now had, a particular patented brand of certification... When tested, it was found to be false - its figures did not come anywhere near the limits for this particular specification, yet it was pointed out..on the newly devised front panel...there was emblazoned : that 'special logo' for which royalties are paid.

 

[ter]

Very unlikely. The trouble is if he had to validate all his claims, he might have to cut whole swathes out of his catalogue because they don't support validation. Far easier to get rid of anything that demands 'proof'.

Like most industries, unless something governmental steps in to legislate - which only tends to happen when a lot of people die or are damaged - people sweep demands for credibility under the carpet.

If someone starts calling others charlatans, they will be derided and destroyed by their rivals. Even if they're right.

BUT some do truly deserve the word 'charatan'! In Hi Fi circles ,people talk. When it is to do with some creature that wishes to sell 'esoteric stuff with even greater esoteric claims' it is not too long they are the talk of the town in Hi Fi social circles that are more interested in that price level. Whether it also equates to people that truly discern 'that expected high level' of Hi Fi ...that's an entirely different discussion!
I do not know how many dealers that were 'up themselves' got laughed out of this town over the last few decades with weird 10 watts a channel valve amps, silly mounting tables, boa constrictor circumference sized speaker cables on match box size speakers, ****y cable pushers, 'exclusive' one brand shops, 'hard price' ticket dealers, or those thinking they were doing someone a privilege allowing a potential buyer to enter their shop.

It is said that people are only separated by six degrees of separation. In any City, when special interests are taken into account... where those same people tend to live..their social interests...who they congregate with and then broaden friendships and associations, perhaps through similar existing friends .....it is not too long before the 'six degrees' are down to four or three. And you hear " Don't you already know about that jerk of a dealer? Well I will tell you what he did / does"
Another phony dealer then,...is putting up his closing down sign........ un-mourned. Laughed out of existence..and realizing it is 'payback time!'

 

[prowla]

if you sell someone a bar of lead and tell them it's gold should they not be entitled to their money back whenever they want- you have actually committed the crime of fraud after all. Is false advertising any less repugnant.[/QUOTE) .

Not only in the actual act of advertising as we know it...but 'extended false advertising' at the point of sale.... IS the crime, further committed. Perhaps we need a worldwide Wiki- HI Fi- leaks Website!.Would THAT clean up some of the 'acts' we see going on. Quite recently there was an explosive full review on an American site of a very expensive piece of equipment. At least they had the legal balls to cover themselves and have it tested in several accredited test labs to further prove their claims of duplicity, taking place. It was found a maker's lesser priced product - was purchased on the wholesale markets ,then 'tinkered with and quietly re-badged' under their own brand, using the internal complete 'guts' of the original product . The reviewers took great care publishing very long and exhaustive test performance charts of both versions of the said equipment. The 're-badger' apparently privately obtained the units and 'tarted them up' without all trade deals done with the original manufacturer. The 're- badger' besides claiming it as their 'very own new release machine' ...were insisting it now had, a particular patented brand of certification... When tested, it was found to be false - its figures did not come anywhere near the limits for this particular specification, yet it was pointed out..on the newly devised front panel...there was emblazoned : that 'special logo' for which royalties are paid.

We've certainly seen some wild claims for kit on these pages, dressed up as science.

 

[Evil Emperor]

BUT some do truly deserve the word 'charatan'! In Hi Fi circles ,people talk. When it is to do with some creature that wishes to sell 'esoteric stuff with even greater esoteric claims' it is not too long they are the talk of the town in Hi Fi social circles that are more interested in that price level. Whether it also equates to people that truly discern 'that expected high level' of Hi Fi ...that's an entirely different discussion!
I do not know how many dealers that were 'up themselves' got laughed out of this town over the last few decades with weird 10 watts a channel valve amps, silly mounting tables, boa constrictor circumference sized speaker cables on match box size speakers, ****y cable pushers, 'exclusive' one brand shops, 'hard price' ticket dealers, or those thinking they were doing someone a privilege allowing a potential buyer to enter their shop.

It is said that people are only separated by six degrees of separation. In any City, when special interests are taken into account... where those same people tend to live..their social interests...who they congregate with and then broaden friendships and associations, perhaps through similar existing friends .....it is not too long before the 'six degrees' are down to four or three. And you hear " Don't you already know about that jerk of a dealer? Well I will tell you what he did / does"
Another phony dealer then,...is putting up his closing down sign........ un-mourned. Laughed out of existence..and realizing it is 'payback time!'

Whether someone deserves to be called a charlatan or not has no bearing on whether they are given that title. And it seems the lunacy of the products sold in a store has no bearing on whether that shop survives.

And I seriously doubt this will do anything significant to RA's business long-term. He'll just change his advertising campaign. Like L'Oreal.

 

[Seeker_UK]

WRT the return of stuff. According to the consumer Rights Act 1979, any item that is not "as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality" can be returned for a refund up to 6 years after purchase (England and Wales).

So there's plenty of time to get a refund on that gold-pressed latinum speaker cable when you find out it's a 2x lenghts of 30A flex.

 

[Mescalito]

----------------------------------------------

In a nutshell, that is what is wrong with the attitudes of many of our top atheistic research scientists today.

WTF does a belief in fairies, bogey men or gods have to do with ANYTHING scientific, Norman?

All religion does is obscure things. Best if it has as little sway and influence as possible.

Chris

 

[Mescalito]

Let’s think of an expert …..why not ask Bishop Dominic Walker? He, like many others, has a broader view of reality.

A broader view of fantasy, you mean.

Chris

 

[Basil]

WRT the return of stuff. According to the consumer Rights Act 1979, any item that is not "as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality" can be returned for a refund up to 6 years after purchase (England and Wales).

So there's plenty of time to get a refund on that gold-pressed latinum speaker cable when you find out it's a 2x lenghts of 30A flex.

You're forgetting rule of acquisition No.1,

'once you have their money, you never give it back'

 

[terrycym]

I remember a Hi-Fi show years ago where RA suggested that a really expensive mains cable would significantly improve the sound quality of audio cassettes played from a getto blaster.
I've found it difficult to take any advertising from RA seriously from RA ever since

 

[ter]

Whether someone deserves to be called a charlatan or not has no bearing on whether they are given that title. And it seems the lunacy of the products sold in a store has no bearing on whether that shop survives.

And I seriously doubt this will do anything significant to RA's business long-term. He'll just change his advertising campaign. Like L'Oreal.

In regard to to your reference to how and what consequence, the use of the word 'charlatan' has on a dealer , I would prefer to disagree.

I remember seeing one clown of a manufacturer 'as the touted special guest' : give a talk and slide show to a pretty full main audio group gathering, once. He already had a bit of a reputation for being up himself'
His very irksome superior manner, his spoken theories, let alone his over-priced equipment..... BUT by the half way point of that talk, more than 3/4 of the gathering just got up and left, muttering insults as they left. Besides name dropping well known names of hi Fi people known throughout the Hi Fi world-wide and providing slide images to back up such meeting...he then committed the final 'faux -pas'. By going so far as to mention the brand and model of watch he wore....providing a deadly social insult remarking 'Well not everybody can afford one of these" as he held up his wrist. showing the watch. What a social manic chatter -box pig of the first order!
After that night, word quickly spread in the City's Hi Fi circles - being amongst enthusiasts ,buyers and dealers ... about his behavior, there. His business then went completely off the cliff -shut down.
Last I heard he went off to England, flogging his stuff! What happened to him or his silly products no one cared. He had been 'terminated' here.

 

[ter]

Deleted by me- [Sorry I made a duplicate reply)