Roksan Caspian M2 + ATC SCM40 = Big mistake
- Thread starter lukanio63
- Start date
HairyHaggis
<((((º>`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸.•´¯`•...¸><((((º>¸.
i use the roksan m2 with proac response d18 speakers and i'm extremely happy with the sound. i'm not an expert by any means but the speakers to my ears sit very happily with the amp.
but, to echo some of the comments above, the room was originally carpeted and the sound was sublime. i then had an oak floor installed and the sound definitely became noticeably sharper. not to the point of being shrill, but definitely a step in that direction. a large rug (almost to the point of i'm wondering why i bothered with the floor in the first place!) and some additional soft furnishings have helped bring it back to where it was.
but, to echo some of the comments above, the room was originally carpeted and the sound was sublime. i then had an oak floor installed and the sound definitely became noticeably sharper. not to the point of being shrill, but definitely a step in that direction. a large rug (almost to the point of i'm wondering why i bothered with the floor in the first place!) and some additional soft furnishings have helped bring it back to where it was.
Yup!
I'm another member of the "Your problem is the Caspians!" camp.
To my ears they are harsh and grainy sounding...And that was through sF Cremona Auditors...Even worse through some KEFs...
I would never have thought they would make a good combo with ATCs. (I am not an ATC fanboi by any means.)
BLACKMASS
pfm Member
I use the Roksan TR-5's with all LINN system (LP12 SE, Akurate CDP,2200 and Exotik pre-amp).
My system took it's time to come on song due to fitting various Dynamik power supplies and running in the TR-5's at the same time, the TR-5's are sounding stunning now.
I'm not sure of your budget but I would think the Roksan TR-5's would be an ideal match for the rest of your system. Throwing money at new speakers is not always the best course of action.
I had a home demo of the Kudos Super 10's (£3500) and I couldn't get on with them. I found them unengaging and tiring. It was a relief to put the Roksans back on. The Roksans were far more enjoyable to listen to.
Good luck.
My system took it's time to come on song due to fitting various Dynamik power supplies and running in the TR-5's at the same time, the TR-5's are sounding stunning now.
I'm not sure of your budget but I would think the Roksan TR-5's would be an ideal match for the rest of your system. Throwing money at new speakers is not always the best course of action.
I had a home demo of the Kudos Super 10's (£3500) and I couldn't get on with them. I found them unengaging and tiring. It was a relief to put the Roksans back on. The Roksans were far more enjoyable to listen to.
Good luck.
MVV
pfm Member
The first thing I would do is take out the power amp and sell it, it isn't doing anything anyhow. Then I would plug an iPhone in and listen to that if it's still awful I'd buy a cheap pair of speakers for about £100 SH. Anything of a reasonably thought of brand something like Wharfedale Diamonds listen to that and muse.
EuroDriver
Audio detail freak
Can you post 2 photos, one of the front of your room, and one of the back of your room ?
Disbeliever
pfm Member
NEVER BELIEVE ANY REVIEW YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO LISTEN YOURSELF
The older ATC's will be ruthlessly revealing of equipment higher up the chain.
In all likelihood, weaknesses in the Roksan amps are being exposed and if so, it would be consistent with my own experience of these amps.
By your own account the previous speakers were also showing indications of the same issues, but the new pair are a big step up and more revealing.
The ATC's are worth keeping, but you'll need a more fitting amp to drive them properly.
Having said that, your experience with both sets of speakers suggests the room may also be contributing to your sonic disappointment.
In all likelihood, weaknesses in the Roksan amps are being exposed and if so, it would be consistent with my own experience of these amps.
By your own account the previous speakers were also showing indications of the same issues, but the new pair are a big step up and more revealing.
The ATC's are worth keeping, but you'll need a more fitting amp to drive them properly.
Having said that, your experience with both sets of speakers suggests the room may also be contributing to your sonic disappointment.
Whaleblue
Southbound
Do nothing with the kit until you've ruled the room out.
The psychology of box swapping is deep and complicated, but so often it seems people concentrate on the kit to fix things that sound wrong where it's the room that's causing the issue.
Do you ever sing in the bath? Does it sound the same when you sing in a hall, or your lounge? Are changes to amps ever as marked as these differences? I'd say no.
Most modern electronics are going to be pretty decent (unless broken), and ATC are world renowned for their speakers, so probably a safe bet that they are not a fundamental problem either (unless broken). Sure, they are 'revealing', but I'm assuming that even your good recordings sound wrong to you?
As EuroDriver suggested post pics (or a sketch) of your room and look at all the hard surfaces they present. Hang some blankets, borrow more rugs and cover the whole floor, whatever, but focus on the room issues before anything else!
The psychology of box swapping is deep and complicated, but so often it seems people concentrate on the kit to fix things that sound wrong where it's the room that's causing the issue.
Do you ever sing in the bath? Does it sound the same when you sing in a hall, or your lounge? Are changes to amps ever as marked as these differences? I'd say no.
Most modern electronics are going to be pretty decent (unless broken), and ATC are world renowned for their speakers, so probably a safe bet that they are not a fundamental problem either (unless broken). Sure, they are 'revealing', but I'm assuming that even your good recordings sound wrong to you?
As EuroDriver suggested post pics (or a sketch) of your room and look at all the hard surfaces they present. Hang some blankets, borrow more rugs and cover the whole floor, whatever, but focus on the room issues before anything else!
Daniel Quinn
Banned
I must say I am confused by much of the advise on here as to me it seems pretty pointless and much is biased due to the ATC fan club.
You say you were never happy with the original sound and now it is worse . Now I could tell you to buy what ive got cause it amazing but i wont .
If i were you I would sell the caspian and the Atc , I would buy a second hand amplifier of ebay [ cambridge/yamaha/ sony/pioneer etc ] something that cost upwards of £600 when new but can now be had for U£100- £150 .
I would then buy second hand speakers of ebay for £150 - £200 and try them , if you dont like them sell them you will not lose . A lot can be had for £100.
epos , old wharfedales , old conventional B&O, jpw , etc . I would look for ones with simple crossovers and 2 way , but its up to you .
This way you can decide what you like , what you can get for little or no money . After 12 months or so you could have tried a dozen different speakers and gained a lot of useful knowledge and will probabbly have a hifi you like .
You say you were never happy with the original sound and now it is worse . Now I could tell you to buy what ive got cause it amazing but i wont .
If i were you I would sell the caspian and the Atc , I would buy a second hand amplifier of ebay [ cambridge/yamaha/ sony/pioneer etc ] something that cost upwards of £600 when new but can now be had for U£100- £150 .
I would then buy second hand speakers of ebay for £150 - £200 and try them , if you dont like them sell them you will not lose . A lot can be had for £100.
epos , old wharfedales , old conventional B&O, jpw , etc . I would look for ones with simple crossovers and 2 way , but its up to you .
This way you can decide what you like , what you can get for little or no money . After 12 months or so you could have tried a dozen different speakers and gained a lot of useful knowledge and will probabbly have a hifi you like .
muzzer
Numb Nut
What is your front end? not sure if you have mentioned it.
Whaleblue
Southbound
Amended to represent the likely future for the OP.
Amended.
Intended partly in jest, so please don't fly off the handle
MVV
pfm Member
This is pretty much my suggestion, however why change one well designed modern amp for another? I simply don't think it can be the amp, more likely the room or source. Also has the OP tried the obvious of something like an ipod as source?
Daniel Quinn
Banned
Disbeliever
pfm Member
MVV
pfm Member
Makes sense and is more fun. The iphone suggestion was cos it has a good digital output and is a quick way of seeing if something is wrong with the CD player.
The Caspian system itself almost definitely will not be the problem (unless they are faulty in some way). I have heard these several times in different locations and situations and they have never sounded as you describe. They are a quality british product and will not have been designed to sound anything less than great! There are however, many things that can, and will, influence the way they sound. Many of these things have already been discussed here.
Firstly, please try to seek the advice of a trusted knowledgable dealer on where things may be going wrong.
Personally I would not think the speakers would be a problem either. Again, in isolation, they will have a sonic signature of some description, but again generally they will perform well to a vast degree otherwise they just wouldn't sell. In some very limited cases, the electrics just won't gel with the speakers but in most cases, neither of these designs are going to stand out to me as being the culprit.
Where things are most likely going to fall down is the setup. I would consider the follow first before giving up and box/speaker swapping:
1. Cables - Avoid fancy all singing/dancing designs and stick to a decent quality copper only cable and connectors. Avoid silver designs, this would most likely heighten the issues you raise. When organising cables at the rear of your equipment, try and arrange them so signal and power cables do not run together. If they have to run nearby each other, try to arrange them so they cross at right angles, rather than sit alongside each other.
2. Stands. Do not stack your equipment items on top of each other, give them a shelf of their own and a little space to breath. Avoid metal and glass construction racks if you are experiencing shrill/glassy high end. Try and obtain some isolation shelving, or stand the equipment on some isolation cones/products to prevent any mechanical vibration adding to the issues.
3. Continue with the soft furnishing thing, try rugs on the wall behind your listening position if you can and experiment, you may be surprised. Whilst you may not want to live with some of these ideas, you may at least identify a issue which could be solved and then find something to work around it.
The equipment you have is worthy of spending the time trying to get it right. Less resolving equipment may not be as receptive to these tweaks, but one thing I have found over the years is that as you get further up the quality equipment chain, the equipment is less "plonk and play" and it starts to demand proper set up to get the best.
Don't give up just yet, and try to beg, borrow etc to try some of these ideas out; so you're not just constantly spending money trying to resolve things.
Best of luck!
Firstly, please try to seek the advice of a trusted knowledgable dealer on where things may be going wrong.
Personally I would not think the speakers would be a problem either. Again, in isolation, they will have a sonic signature of some description, but again generally they will perform well to a vast degree otherwise they just wouldn't sell. In some very limited cases, the electrics just won't gel with the speakers but in most cases, neither of these designs are going to stand out to me as being the culprit.
Where things are most likely going to fall down is the setup. I would consider the follow first before giving up and box/speaker swapping:
1. Cables - Avoid fancy all singing/dancing designs and stick to a decent quality copper only cable and connectors. Avoid silver designs, this would most likely heighten the issues you raise. When organising cables at the rear of your equipment, try and arrange them so signal and power cables do not run together. If they have to run nearby each other, try to arrange them so they cross at right angles, rather than sit alongside each other.
2. Stands. Do not stack your equipment items on top of each other, give them a shelf of their own and a little space to breath. Avoid metal and glass construction racks if you are experiencing shrill/glassy high end. Try and obtain some isolation shelving, or stand the equipment on some isolation cones/products to prevent any mechanical vibration adding to the issues.
3. Continue with the soft furnishing thing, try rugs on the wall behind your listening position if you can and experiment, you may be surprised. Whilst you may not want to live with some of these ideas, you may at least identify a issue which could be solved and then find something to work around it.
The equipment you have is worthy of spending the time trying to get it right. Less resolving equipment may not be as receptive to these tweaks, but one thing I have found over the years is that as you get further up the quality equipment chain, the equipment is less "plonk and play" and it starts to demand proper set up to get the best.
Don't give up just yet, and try to beg, borrow etc to try some of these ideas out; so you're not just constantly spending money trying to resolve things.
Best of luck!