Restoring a Thorens TD124 Mk II SME3009 Shure V15 Type III

[Fox]

Right. Today I open up the motor and sort out what a clicking noise is... I think I can get it running a bit quieter as well and achieve a longer spin-down time, so today's job is to strip and clean the motor.open up the the motor bearing and disassemble the thrust plate on the motor so see how things are inside.

More later.

 

[Tony L]

Sounds like fun. Are you going to drill the little rivets out to get at the felt washer etc?

Tony.

 

[Fox]

Tony... yes

OK I am on the home stretch now (Patrick will be pleased to know). At present it takes 30 seconds to stop spinning. Not bad but I think I can do better. Plus its noisy and needs to stay on speed as the strobe skips backward and no messing with the magnet solves it so I think I need to open it up and look inside. There is a blow by blow account of how to do this listed earlier in this thread I am just showing what I see...

First of all the drive belt is shagged and in need of replacement. One is ordered and on its way.

Motor suspension grommets are on the other hand in fine shape. Absolutely no need to change these! But they do need to be removed in order to get inside.

Compared to modern decks this motor is a brute -- complete overkill (or is it modern motors are just powerful enough?). This is in lovely shape. Some electric scoring around the drum of the windings but nothing that causes me to worry.

Closer examination shows the motor bearing is good and unworn. No flattening and shiny and well lubricated -- probably after the initial lubrication Martin and I gave it a few weeks earlier when it stuck... No nasty dried out grunge which makes the next bit seem hopeful.

As the thrust plate is riveted on, the thrust plate needs to be drilled out to examine the insides. This is less scary as it sounds. The rivets are made of soft brass and come out easily.

The bearing thrust plate assembly separates easily enough to reveal a sintered bronze bushing, a pair of form pads and a spring. The spring is springy, the bushings are clean and not dried with no evidence of caked or dried oil. So far so good.

Endstop looks good. Clean and no obvious damage. I'll flip it over and use the other side so the fit is good and tight.

The motor bearing thrust plate is reassembled and screwed in with two stainless steel screws and bolts on the other side. Nice and tight but taking care to not deform the case or the bearing stop housing.

A final re-lube with just a few drops of 20% slip and 10W 40 to top up the foam pads which are still very absorbent. A final check before reassembly for any oil leaks... no Hermatite needed!

The motor has a cover guard which rattles slightly. This is a source of vibration and may be the click -- no matter how small and no matter how well damped by the rubber motor grommets so I wrapped a little plumbers tape at the point where the plate and the motor meet - there is a washer on the other side and a grommet so this should hold it a bit snugger.

...

(The bushings on the other side of the motor look the same and are accessed in the same way so no need to repeat. Just oil and go...)

All reassembled and the click has disappeared, the deck reaches correct speed in under a revolution -- remarkable! My Orbe never managed that! The strobe tells me it is now no longer catching as the strobe stays still and does not waver or skip backwards (as it had done). There is just a gentle hum from the motor through the stethoscope with no clicks. Spin down is now 1min 30sec from 30sec. I am unsure what needed doing but a general strip and re-lube obviously helped things.

Now to leave for an hour or so at 78RPM and to listen periodically with the stethoscope. If all is good by tomorrow I can bolt on a cart and set it up for playing records again...

 

[Tony L]

It all looks to be in superb condition, even the felt washer looks good.

Tony.

 

[Fox]

Indeed! Its just maintenance so far and cosmetic detailing plinth/armboard. However something sorted out the click and the wavering speed though... I can flip between 78 and 33 RPM and it nails the speed every time.

UPDATE: the deck is still running spot on. I think that's the problem sorted. Various ratios of slip/oil were added to other parts of the mech. I've polished the drive wheel and the pully wheel (cleaning a lot of the belt off of it) with this last oil change and the deck is probably about as good as I can get it from a mechanical p.o.v.

 

[Fox]

Home stretch now...

The replacement drive belt arrived from Malvern Audio (dappletoft) on eBay and the visual difference is quite obvious. Much thicker and matte in finish, the original was probably like this once.

It arrived safe and sound with today's post I so took out the old one and put in the new. First of all the replacement is very much thicker and its tighter -- I assume the other one has stretched over the years. Still it fitted without any problem and indeed has made no difference to the speed stability of the deck from a strobe point of view. I'll bag up and keep the old pulley belt with everything else just in case - you never know.

One final check of the idler wheel while adding a drop of lube to it reveals it to have no eccentricity and is, without compression (aka "wheel tread") at 79.74mm. I assume it is supposed to be about 80mm so definitely good enough for now.

So everything is ready...

...except just one damn thing... It will be a few more weeks before the Koetsu cartridge is back from its own voyage of refurbishment and restoration so I shall be "slumming it" with a Denon DL103, I have been unfortunate with a couple of online orders falling through -- so in the end I ordered from the really nice people at Harrow Audio who will courier one up to me for just £2 extra. So courier willing I shall have vinyl sounds for the weekend! (Quick thumbs up for Richard BTW who was very knowledgeable and helpful).

So the deck is set up in expectation! I even bought a set of £25 digital scales which arrived today from Singapore. I always used to set carts by ear but I'm getting too old for that now and for a Koetsu retip its probably good to nail the tracking force "just so"; and the Denon will benefit from such anal nerdery too. I even have a bag of extra stainless steel cartridge bolts -- just in case.

So, godspeed little DL103. Patrick's waiting!

 

[Fox]

She sings...

(I tell you life is a *lot* easier with digital stylus scales...)

S'cuse me I have some listening to do...

 

[Tony L]

Excellent news - makes my Garrard progress look somewhat lethargic. So what does it sound like?

Tony.

 

[Fox]

like it was all worth it

 

[jimb0]

Niiice. Envious in the extreme.

Are those scales via ebay? Can you let me know the seller?

Ta,

Jim

 

[Fox]

click the word Singapore in my earlier post ? Thats his eBay store. A few left at £25 quid inc P&P then they go up to £30.

My oh my, its just like the old days. I see a record sea happening...

 

[jimb0]

D'oh. I am weak from lack of alchohol, that's my excuse.

 

[Fox]

There is a slight issue I will deal with later in that the mechanism for the upper platter lift is a bit shallow so I cannot use that mechanism yet -- it isn't high enough but that's just down to adjusting the spikes that raise it.

But right now its making me very very happy... gosh... wow...

 

[Setting Son]

Nice job, sir. Looks stunning.

 

[JMP]

Hi,

your 124 looks very nice. You've done a good restoration job. Congrats!
The upper platter lift is easily set up from underneath.

When funds allow, I would really advice you to try to demo the amagnetic platter from Schopper. This upgrade is really huge, especially when using MC carts.

I had the chance to demo one at home on my 124. We put it on, and this was the kind of upgrades that took about 10 sec to know that it will stay!!

Best
JM

 

[Fox]

Yep did the the platter lift mech last night. I am suspecting all the flipping it over required resetting which has probably never been done in its life before...

I am interested in the Schopper platter but dropping £900+ on a new platter is a bit much for me right now... There's also a CNC machined Brass platter out there I am seriously tempted with (seeing as the TD 124 was prototyped in Brass but moved to Iron for cost reasons and I can get it on Sale or Return).

So I'm selling one of my spare Aluminium platters first in order do a proper comparison. There is a fine line between restoration and alteration and that line is crossed with new platters. I don't want to be over egging the pudding.

 

[Fox]

Excellent news - makes my Garrard progress look somewhat lethargic. So what does it sound like?

Okay had some time to lisen carefully and let the dust settle. The DL103 is still fresh as a daisy and needs a solid week to get used to but in the meantime here are some thoughts.

Resisting the urge to stay in the safe havens of the BeBop and hard bop period where, frankly you have to really mess things up in order to sound bad... I've been playing a pile of my old Planet Dog records from the mid 90s; such as Banco De Gaia/HIA (not really Planet Dog but still part of the family)/Children of the Bong/Future Loop Foundation... they have aged very well. Also played the 45RPM cut of PiL's Metal Box opener "Albatross". The one thing they all haveion common is there is a really firm grip on the rhythmic aspects of the music (must get to some Afrobeat next -- Tony Allen/Fela & Femi Kuti etc). Nice to hear the tape spinning up on the hiss as the original PiL master is a bit loosely spliced.

Ok have been a bit HiFi nerdy and deliberately trying to catch the Thorens/Mørch/DL103 combo out with deep bass cuts and so far it has the doors and walls rattling with no flub and is actually more in control in the whole frequency spread as well as the Orbe does... especially when things get busy. Quite different presentation -- I do like both but when does the driver of an Jaguar E-type or Aston Martin DB5 care?

Re idler/quasi-idler vs belt drive I can't hear any rumble -- there's a little bit more groove wall noise but its a new cart and hardly noticed it unless I specifically listen for it. Very subtle.

It just goes to show with a deck designed circa 1955 what a little care and attention can get you. This is definitely a keeper. My deck. Reckon dad would have been proud.

 

[JMP]

This is definitely a keeper.

Yes this is what I think also. I have my 124 for a few years now, and always came back to it at the end. It is a superbly engineered and built turntable, and once setup, it will run for years.

I would still advice you to find a way to demo the schopper platter. I know it seems expensive as first sight but you can't imagine the improvement when using MC carts.
This platter has been designed by swiss people, with help from one engineer originally working at the Ste-Croix factory.

enjoy your 124 and enjoy music
Best
JM

 

[Fox]

In the meantime I have been trying the Iron Platter against the Ally one and I much prefer the Iron Platter. Its a lot more solid in the way everything sits in the room -- the only problem is 1. Its not mine and 2: The cartridge needs to be super light when the Iron Platter goes on so obviously the DL103 is being magnetically attracted/pulled towards the platter! What I particularly like is the Iron Platter has better timing than the Ally one, it makes the deck much more the paragon of Flat Earthism that people attribute to the Idler decks.

However the Brass platter (Manufactured by Primetime and sold through on/off HiFi in Germany (and on ebay) -- many many thanks to Marcus Sauer for being an interpreter) is interesting. It arrived today and I've been mostly playing with it and the Iron platter. Its as heavy as the iron one a lot heavier then the Ally one but its a helluva lot better made! The advent of CNC machining is probably a lot easier to get good tolerances these days and the end result -- after a very quick lash up to the bearing -- is a very different sound to the Ally one, more like the Iron Platter but more Bass and Treble detailing and a bit less peaky in the midrange... If you're used to the Ally deck then it may be a bit "airyer" as a result. Lots more bass detail and the top end is less "etched" than the Ally one. I hadn't noticed these apparent "ringing" effects until I tried an Iron platter. The Ally platter is a step back, but the Brass Platter seems to ameliorate all the worst bits of the Ally sound and get closer to the Iron Platter's tighter grip on everything, bass is a bit flubby in places.

Will report more in a bit as I am off tomorrow to get the bearing properly attached and balanced at a precision machine shop in Carlisle that does this for machinery and bearings and they were quite happy to do it for me in their lunch break.

In the meantime here's some platter porn:

This thing is *heavy*... Its a joy to look at -- a shame its covered by the upper platter.

I am almost at the point where I can stop messing with it now. Lash on the Koetsu Urushi when it arrives and hopefully say job done...

 

[jimb0]

Very steampunk!