Restoring a Thorens TD124 Mk II SME3009 Shure V15 Type III
- Thread starter Fox
- Start date
I don't think I want to mess with the Orbe/Morch to be honest now its singing and has been absolutely reliably sounding every time I switch it on... And I think Patrick is right about packing up the plinth and the SME3009 (or I could send it to J7 @ Audio Origami for a quick re-fettle and bolt it to my Orbe as mine has two-arm capability).
A Hadcock would be a lovely choice -- having owned an old one as a second arm on my Orbe its a fine tonearm. In fact ISTR people were saying Unipivots work best on non sprung TTs.
Re plinths: slate versus solid versus hollow plinth I have been soaking up details and data from Mr Schopper's website and I think I shall initially start with approaching the deck from the Motor, the Plinth and idler silencing.
The motor-update looks like a send it to them job, a few DIY servicing pages detail drilling off the motor end-cap rivets to gain access to the motor -- everything looks reasonably DIY-able... plinth wise I could still go the slate route but I saw this:
Which is Mr Schopper's massy plinth -- a wholly more complex beast presumably for added mass. Would anyone care to comment on how much better this would be and if slate would still be a better choice? I see there are a few DIY plinth designs based on the original cutout but it might be nice to see if I can make one of these. £985 for that is a lot!
When I get the Thorens working as well as it can then I stall start the serious task of seeing which turntable whips who's ass.
(God I reckon I may even end up with Quads and valves at this rate. Jonathan Ribbee will be so smug)
A Hadcock would be a lovely choice -- having owned an old one as a second arm on my Orbe its a fine tonearm. In fact ISTR people were saying Unipivots work best on non sprung TTs.
Re plinths: slate versus solid versus hollow plinth I have been soaking up details and data from Mr Schopper's website and I think I shall initially start with approaching the deck from the Motor, the Plinth and idler silencing.
The motor-update looks like a send it to them job, a few DIY servicing pages detail drilling off the motor end-cap rivets to gain access to the motor -- everything looks reasonably DIY-able... plinth wise I could still go the slate route but I saw this:
Which is Mr Schopper's massy plinth -- a wholly more complex beast presumably for added mass. Would anyone care to comment on how much better this would be and if slate would still be a better choice? I see there are a few DIY plinth designs based on the original cutout but it might be nice to see if I can make one of these. £985 for that is a lot!
When I get the Thorens working as well as it can then I stall start the serious task of seeing which turntable whips who's ass.
(God I reckon I may even end up with Quads and valves at this rate. Jonathan Ribbee will be so smug)
Tony L
Administrator
Good plan. My impression from a) reading The Whole Internet and b) listening to my completely stock (but very clean) Lenco L70 and Andy H’s 301 / SME in a basic skeletal plinth is that ‘what idlers do’ should be abundantly clear to you. I suspect that the 124 / SME will be a far more obvious example against the Orbe than my L70 is against the Space.
For me the L70 with it’s comedy arm and humble Pickering V15 MM, despite sounding laughably low-fi in certain respects, has a sense of propulsion, urgency and down-right enthusiasm compared to the far more open, refined and detailed Space / Hadcock / DL-110 that made me grin. Don’t get me wrong, I love the Spacedeck, it is certainly the best deck I’ve ever owned, but if I can bring an idler drive deck (the 301) up to compete in the areas the Space does so well without loosing that hard to define idler ‘drive’ then I’ll have a winner. Da Internetz say yes. Time will tell…
Tony.
PS that Schopper plinth is beautiful. If I were going slate I'd try to keep that classic Thorens shape if possible.
Whatever happens I want that shape. Totally.
I think what I hear in the Idler drive "thing" is pretty much the essence of good rhythm. Start/stops in pizzicato are majorly improved on the Orbe which is not something you realise until you hear it. There is a pulse or a drive to the music that forces the foot to tap and nowhere is this more apparent on Orchestral music where the sections all start to have their own pulse and string quartets start to play timing tricks with my ears as the bump and grind of a good Shostakovitch String Q starts to become apparent. Its more delecately portrayed on the Orbe. The problems for me with the TD124 Mk II starts immediately after the initial pulse of the note and it all ends up a bit of a horrid mush. If I can extend that initial pulse and drive into detailing then I have the makings of something that will make the Orbe a bit... well "fuzzy" and thats not saying something lightly as I have never heard anything since getting it to really challenge it -- so a deck from 1960s popping into my life and doing something obviously better is a surprise and a bit humbling.
Basics first. Silence the deck and get it running optimally then address arm and cart.
And that rrrrrrmmmmmmbbbbllllll in the background simply has to go!
More reading needed but its interesting reading Octave Audio's data on where they feels that rumble comes from.
I think what I hear in the Idler drive "thing" is pretty much the essence of good rhythm. Start/stops in pizzicato are majorly improved on the Orbe which is not something you realise until you hear it. There is a pulse or a drive to the music that forces the foot to tap and nowhere is this more apparent on Orchestral music where the sections all start to have their own pulse and string quartets start to play timing tricks with my ears as the bump and grind of a good Shostakovitch String Q starts to become apparent. Its more delecately portrayed on the Orbe. The problems for me with the TD124 Mk II starts immediately after the initial pulse of the note and it all ends up a bit of a horrid mush. If I can extend that initial pulse and drive into detailing then I have the makings of something that will make the Orbe a bit... well "fuzzy" and thats not saying something lightly as I have never heard anything since getting it to really challenge it -- so a deck from 1960s popping into my life and doing something obviously better is a surprise and a bit humbling.
Basics first. Silence the deck and get it running optimally then address arm and cart.
And that rrrrrrmmmmmmbbbbllllll in the background simply has to go!
More reading needed but its interesting reading Octave Audio's data on where they feels that rumble comes from.
Tony L
Administrator
If you are getting a lot of rumble I’d try a basic re-lube of the motor and give the pulleys, idler and inner platter really good clean with isopropyl or similar, then leave it running overnight on 78. Does the sound of the rumble give any clues as to origin, i.e. is it a constant or a pattern? It might give a clue as to whether it is the motor or drive system. It might prove interesting to take the belt off and try the stylus on the stationary record just to establish how much is structure born motor noise – the rubber grommets that decouple the motor from the chassis might be too old, hard and brittle and a contributing factor, i.e. whilst a 300 quid motor rebuild would be nice it might not be necessary. Certainly neither my L70 or Andy’s 301 rumble badly through the speakers.
Tony.
Removing the belt is a great idea - will do!
I was going to refurb the motor myself (see the link below) as the deck takes 10-20 minutes to get up to accurate speed and then wavers suggesting the oil in the bearing has hardened.
http://homepage2.nifty.com/pantone/thorens/index.htm
(Must knock-up Bub for a stethoscope)
I was going to refurb the motor myself (see the link below) as the deck takes 10-20 minutes to get up to accurate speed and then wavers suggesting the oil in the bearing has hardened.
http://homepage2.nifty.com/pantone/thorens/index.htm
(Must knock-up Bub for a stethoscope)
You need one of these
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AUTOMOTIVE-ME...ryZ58177QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
This site contains affiliate links for which pink fish media may be compensated.
audiogoose
pfm Member
I agree with Tony on his recommendations to reduce rumble. When I bought my 124, it was very slow in coming up to speed and I found it very worthwhile to disassemble the motor in order to do a really good job of cleaning the rotor, stator and both upper and lower motor bearings. After relubing the bearings and carefully trying to align them, my motor ran like a top and the 124 would come up to speed in about one revolution of the platter, even from a cold start.
Also, be sure the idler wheel is in good condition. If out of round, it could be contributing to rumble. A new belt is definitely a good ideas IMHO.
These are my experiences and getting to where I am, 2 years later, was half the fun.
Jerry
Also, be sure the idler wheel is in good condition. If out of round, it could be contributing to rumble. A new belt is definitely a good ideas IMHO.
These are my experiences and getting to where I am, 2 years later, was half the fun.
Jerry
Robert
Tapehead
Yes I picked one up to try a couple of years ago (the 'ML') and t is superbly clean and detailed but also very dry and bright. Great in a warm system.
audiogoose
pfm Member
Thanks that was a fascinating read. And it also led me to a blow by blow restoration of the motor which, after 40 years seems like it needs a strip and clean as it never actually seems to stabilize at any speed. I'm not sure about making my own felt washers though. Hopefully eBay will come up trumps.
I'll be sure to document the process. I'd like to keep it as stock as possible as I am well aware of people improving antiques and I think this deserves to be as unaltered un touched as possible. I have decided to keep the original plinth and the SME 3009. But explore a good tonearm when the deck is fettered and ready for such expenses.
I am thinking about making a solid plinth from ply to emulate the ortofon/schopper design. Hopefully I can get my hands on a design for the solid plinth. Worst case Is to make a tracing from the plinth I already own but first I'd like to get my hands on a good design schematic.
Oh goody I get to join the PFM router-wielding set!
I'll be sure to document the process. I'd like to keep it as stock as possible as I am well aware of people improving antiques and I think this deserves to be as unaltered un touched as possible. I have decided to keep the original plinth and the SME 3009. But explore a good tonearm when the deck is fettered and ready for such expenses.
I am thinking about making a solid plinth from ply to emulate the ortofon/schopper design. Hopefully I can get my hands on a design for the solid plinth. Worst case Is to make a tracing from the plinth I already own but first I'd like to get my hands on a good design schematic.
Oh goody I get to join the PFM router-wielding set!
audiogoose
pfm Member
Don't know if this is the motor rebuild site you have visited, or not, but just in case it wasn't, here is a link to a good one.
http://homepage2.nifty.com/pantone/thorens/overhaul_1.htm
Jerry
http://homepage2.nifty.com/pantone/thorens/overhaul_1.htm
Jerry
The guy who did the slate plinth and restored the deck is a friend; the paint job was at the request of another guy of his who also provided the bling SME. That guy has the interior to match; it's a wonder he has good enough taste to have asked for the TD 124.
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