SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
I don't think the 112 is Naim's finest achievement, even at it's modest position in the range. Can you not stretch that a little?
Rega RS7 Versus Harbeth Super HL5 loudspeakers
- Thread starter audiojoy
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I don't think the 112 is Naim's finest achievement, even at it's modest position in the range. Can you not stretch that a little?
You don't here people attribute such concepts to live music.Maybe an effect to make home systems more 'exciting'.
Exactly that. It's the exact same phenomenon as causes most people to believe that TVs with the contrast and colour luminance/saturation way too high, and a too cold colour temperature are "better" than ones that are actually far more accurate. You don't hear people saying.. "wow look at how bright the ice is" when watching ice hockey in real life. But you often hear similar remarks in shops when people compare TVs. Modern plasma TVs which are measurably more accurate than most LCD/LED sets get accused of being "dull" and "too orange/brown" etc in most shop comparisons when set to the correct settings. When actually it's the other sets that are too bright and blue. Speakers have gone the same way. Need to be "impressive" and "stand out" in comparison with the competition.
GTM
Call it what you want 'speed', PRAT' 'musicality'.....the music makes more sense to me because the tempo is correct which in turn makes melodies with 'rhythm and swing' which emotionally also makes sense.
It is very clear to me by using these two great speakers, that for me the 'warmth' of the speaker's sound is less important to me than its 'music making' capabilities
Perhaps tipping the tonal balance upwards is the only way to uncover the bits of evidence that allows the brain to appreciate the 'soul' of the music within the limitations of the technologies we have for sound reproduction... in particular speakers.
Call it what you want 'speed', PRAT' 'musicality'.....the music makes more sense to me because the tempo is correct which in turn makes melodies with 'rhythm and swing' which emotionally also makes sense.
It is very clear to me by using these two great speakers, that for me the 'warmth' of the speaker's sound is less important to me than its 'music making' capabilities
Perhaps tipping the tonal balance upwards is the only way to uncover the bits of evidence that allows the brain to appreciate the 'soul' of the music within the limitations of the technologies we have for sound reproduction... in particular speakers.
Steve you are the second to say that about the 112, i have already got it for a good price £170, let me dip my feet back into the water with NAim its been a long time since i have heard one and i can always build from here upwards if its the direction I want to go in. PS I can eaily build segregated power supplies as upgrades
thanks Luke
thanks Luke
I remember using Foundation stands for both. Not the same stand. 7 for me has always been more upbeat with better attack compared to SHL5. Still might be going for the 5's next if I don't find anything that suits my tastes better for similar money. PMC Twenty series was promising at a shop, might try them at home too.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
Luke, their forum would be a good place to pose the question but I have seldom seen comment much beyond 'get a 122 if you possibly can'. I've had plenty of Naim amps and the pre's tend to define the result so if it's not up to snuff ....
Sadly a 112 is limited(in Naim world) and allmost any other Nac will perform more open and transparent. Don't read its bad though, there are some haters, just easy to get better inside hiearchy, just avoid the 92 too IMO.
Good price BTW. - would have done the purchase myself.
Offcourse it will help adding separate PSU, even more if its the older Nap 150 that didn't had too much af pre-psu inside, later came the 150x both a decent amp on most speakers, I ran one with a 62 or 102 preamp and combined with a snaps or hicap it was a sniff of the better stuff.
Still exited what comes out of the battle dual Brio vs Naimgame.
I have noticed today that the RS7 is occasionally capable of a beautifully capturing a midrange in a male vocalist which goes against my original comments of it having a 'recessed' midrange. This suggests that the Saturn may be partly to blame. A valve output would of course be useful or at least a valve buffer. The problem is getting one that matches the musicality of the Saturn. None exist as far as I am aware. The second thought would be the addition of a subwoofer., very low volume and sub 60hz only. I have lived with your rels etc and they are absolutely awful and ponderous sounding. I have built 12" dual dipoles and they are fast. However, where can you get a subwoofer with ultimate 'musicality' in mind??? Of course a bass guitarists amplifier/subwoofer unit. I found that these, even the cheaper ones under a 100 quid did everything my megga 12" dual dipoles did and almost sounded the same. SO that is where i will head next to make this rega a great speaker.
Continued auditioning of this speaker still amazes me how everything sounds so much fresher, tuneful and hence exciting. Yes it has an irritating top end and lacks a full bodied midrange. But Guitar melodies that the Harbeth glossed over now have greater meaning within the bigger picture. Their pulsating rhythms and intricate interplay are quite an eye opener. No matter what i play i can find melodies hidden in all corners of a tune. Vocalists have gained a new order of expressions to their voices to bring more meaning to a song, etc etc etc
Continued auditioning of this speaker still amazes me how everything sounds so much fresher, tuneful and hence exciting. Yes it has an irritating top end and lacks a full bodied midrange. But Guitar melodies that the Harbeth glossed over now have greater meaning within the bigger picture. Their pulsating rhythms and intricate interplay are quite an eye opener. No matter what i play i can find melodies hidden in all corners of a tune. Vocalists have gained a new order of expressions to their voices to bring more meaning to a song, etc etc etc
Logical explanation. However, for simplicity sake the term "speed" has been used to describe this overemphasis of upper mid/lower treble or simply the resonance contributed by the speaker cabinet or perhaps room acoustics itself which somehow cause the speaker to sound "slower". The colourations of the speaker, the setup of the system and effects of the room will evidently have an impact to the sound.
Good to hear the RS7s are living up to your expectations and sounding more enjoyable than the Harbeth speakers. Listening preferences certainly play a major role here, and I always respect and acknowledge the fact that cheaper and lesser equipment or speakers can sometimes connect the listener to the musical content more effectively than costlier gear.
I have not listened to the Naim NAC112 but got to know that this piece is not very highly regarded by the Naim community and haters alike. In the line of Naim preamps, the NAC122x is usually recommended as a minimum entry to a reasonably decent Naim system. Anyway, since you've got the 112 at a pretty good price of £170, guess it isn't too bad after all. Not too sure why you considered the Naim amps as you have already decided to sell the Harbeth. I suppose the RS7 will match better with Rega amps, particularly the excellent Brio-R.
Ryder you are right i have decided to sell the Harbeths and the whole point of the Naim was to try it on them. But as Naims philosophy is similar to Regas I am now just very intrigued to see what the Naim can achieve on Rega's own set up. I dont often see a consensus of opinion about best speaker match for Naim electronics???
I am not sure people have appreciated my argument for selling the Harbeth's. We are not talking about the perceived 'speed' of sound solely coming from the RS7' as being the reason for it sounding so musical. You have to take the speaker as a whole and the designers careful choice of components materials etc to fit their design principles. I believe there will be a multitude of factors that leads to the final 'musical' sound that comes from the Rega. e.g you can have a rhythm guitar playing in the background, and in my set up that guitar is still clearly audible on the Harbeths, but it is not playing as tunefully and rhythmically as on the Rega. I could place various supports under the Harbeths such as stillpoints etc and guess what i can make the speaker sound much leaner, however e.g with the stillpoints it sounds even less tuneful and less cohesive as a whole. So it surely is not just down to lighting up the upper end of the Regas that is doing it for me??? I guess from a basic physics point of view you only have to look at the tiny midrange cone of the Rega cf the Harbeth to appreciate how a lighter smaller cone will move quicker and represent transients more accurately????
I am not sure people have appreciated my argument for selling the Harbeth's. We are not talking about the perceived 'speed' of sound solely coming from the RS7' as being the reason for it sounding so musical. You have to take the speaker as a whole and the designers careful choice of components materials etc to fit their design principles. I believe there will be a multitude of factors that leads to the final 'musical' sound that comes from the Rega. e.g you can have a rhythm guitar playing in the background, and in my set up that guitar is still clearly audible on the Harbeths, but it is not playing as tunefully and rhythmically as on the Rega. I could place various supports under the Harbeths such as stillpoints etc and guess what i can make the speaker sound much leaner, however e.g with the stillpoints it sounds even less tuneful and less cohesive as a whole. So it surely is not just down to lighting up the upper end of the Regas that is doing it for me??? I guess from a basic physics point of view you only have to look at the tiny midrange cone of the Rega cf the Harbeth to appreciate how a lighter smaller cone will move quicker and represent transients more accurately????
The Harbeth is a better speaker to my ears;They are just a far more experienced and classier speaker manufacturer. Rega make fine products, but their speakers are not the better part of their products. They can sound bright and lean because they are....and the whole 'speed' thing is, as already pointed out, a function of a manipulated frequency range...you emphasis the upper mid/lower top and you make the bass unnaturally tight and slightly lean. That makes everything sound fast......
Still, as in all hi fi, it's what you like. I wonder how sure you really are, because asking other people on these forums seems like seeking reassurance. Only your ears count in this, the rest of us aren't making the same choices.(and I would never ask a forum if I was.)
Still, as in all hi fi, it's what you like. I wonder how sure you really are, because asking other people on these forums seems like seeking reassurance. Only your ears count in this, the rest of us aren't making the same choices.(and I would never ask a forum if I was.)
PASKINN
Thanks for your input. I think you might be misled by the posts. The thread was just my own personal comparison of two speakers there is no big question asked of anyone as the main theme. Just mainly my observations.
I am very certain that the Harbeths are not for me as i have seen music presented in a way that shows me the artists intent more clearly through the Rega RS7.... I can live with its weaknesses for now. (are you sure its not the other way round regarding who needs reassurance). Ultimately will look for a speaker which can have a more natural tonal warmth along with all its great bits. This takes us back full circle to the original argument, is the present cone technology capable of producing such a 'sound'? I think not. Not heard ceramics yet.... any one shed some light on these speakers???
Thanks for your input. I think you might be misled by the posts. The thread was just my own personal comparison of two speakers there is no big question asked of anyone as the main theme. Just mainly my observations.
I am very certain that the Harbeths are not for me as i have seen music presented in a way that shows me the artists intent more clearly through the Rega RS7.... I can live with its weaknesses for now. (are you sure its not the other way round regarding who needs reassurance). Ultimately will look for a speaker which can have a more natural tonal warmth along with all its great bits. This takes us back full circle to the original argument, is the present cone technology capable of producing such a 'sound'? I think not. Not heard ceramics yet.... any one shed some light on these speakers???
MikeMA
pfm Member
What stands have you got the Harbeths on (sorry if I've missed that) ? I've had Compact 7s and M30s, though not SHL5s. In my experience the Compact 7s work best on open stands which allow them to breath. Putting them on solid stands seems to muddy/slow the bass response. I think it may be something to do with the thin walled cabinets? The SHL5s are of similar construction, though bigger of couse. Open stands seem to be popular with Harbeth users.
Hi Jadisman
open stands
ps its not just the bass that is not producing the best results with regards to musicality it includes the midrange and the treble. Please make no mistake these are MUSICAL sounding speakers its just thatthey are not as good as the Regas in this respect. I am afraid i am very convinced that this area of its performance is innate and canot be altered by room, postioning or stands.
open stands
ps its not just the bass that is not producing the best results with regards to musicality it includes the midrange and the treble. Please make no mistake these are MUSICAL sounding speakers its just thatthey are not as good as the Regas in this respect. I am afraid i am very convinced that this area of its performance is innate and canot be altered by room, postioning or stands.