Rega RS7 Versus Harbeth Super HL5 loudspeakers

[audiojoy]

I have rega brio-R's (dual mono set up) and rega saturn to test these two speakers on. Lived with the Harbeths for over 6 months so very familiar with its sound. Got the Rega's a few days ago.

Initial impressions

The Harbeth has amazing tonal qualities which sound accurate not only in the midrange but also in the treble and bass. The Rega's are more transparent probably due to less body and tonal warmth than the Harbeths. They can sound particularly lean in the midrange with a very monotonal treble, which also appears to lack body, no match whatsoever with the Harbeth's. The Regas do however have great speed and highlight the artistic skills of vocalists and musicians, giving an exciting degree of insight. The Harbeths also do this but in a more relaxed ?? more natural pace. But as the sound is 'full tonally' it does not accentuate higher and mid range frequencies to the same extent as the Rega, appearing on first listen as lacking transparency and speed. Ultimately the pace and transparency of the Harbeths feels more realistic, as do the instruments.

Will reposition the regas..... perhaps too far away from the rear wall (about 4-5 feet) to do justice to the midrange. Any other suggestions would be appreciated to get the best out of them. I am using regas quattro speaker cables that match the amps so well.

 

[audiojoy]

I have moved the rega to the back of the room. It has probably the best bass production i have ever encountered from any speaker and its musicality is excellent. However next to the Harbeth it sounds crude unrefined overlie bright and it has a metallic tinge to its treble which also comes across as one note!!

 

[ryder]

Good writeup which pretty much sums up my impression on the Harbeth SHL5s.

If you have a chance to try a Nait 5i or Nait XS on the SHL5, I would be curious to know how these amps compare with the Rega Brio-R. The last time I tried the Nait XS and Rega Elicit on the SHL5, the pace and rhythm with the Nait XS is better as start and stop of notes and transient attack are reproduced more convincingly with the speakers. With the Elicit, there is a lag which accentuates the bloom that is already inherent in the Harbeth. The Rega sounds slightly sweeter than the Naim though but at the expense of speed and dynamics/transient attack.

Perhaps the Brio-R sounds different from the Elicit in some ways and matches better with the Harbeth.

I do not have experience with the Rega RS7 but have expected the Harbeth to be a more refined speaker.

 

[muzzer]

I have heard the saying "one note bass" but thats the first time I have heard treble described as such.

 

[Silver Surfer]

If the Rega Rs7 new, it will take about 100 hours for "break in"...

 

[Robert]

I have moved the rega to the back of the room. It has probably the best bass production i have ever encountered from any speaker and its musicality is excellent. However next to the Harbeth it sounds crude unrefined overlie bright and it has a metallic tinge to its treble which also comes across as one note!!

Avoid the temptation to flip-flop between loudspeakers when trying to assess their relative qualitative. The differences are usually such that you hear them exaggerated as the brain has little/no time to adjust to the pronounced difference in balance.
Direct comparison is fine when looking at electronics where differences are small but it doesn't work well where differences are gross, as they are between Harbeth and Rega loudspeakers.

Use one pair for 1-2 weeks and then swap, allowing the same period to assess the second pair.

 

[limono]

Avoid the temptation to flip-flop between loudspeakers when trying to assess their relative qualitative. The differences are usually such that you hear them exaggerated as the brain has little/no time to adjust to the pronounced difference in balance.
Direct comparison is fine when looking at electronics where differences are small but it doesn't work well where differences are gross, as they are between Harbeth and Rega loudspeakers.

Use one pair for 1-2 weeks and then swap, allowing the same period to assess the second pair.

Agreed , listen for extended period trying to suppress the itch for constant A-B switching. Than go with your preferences ,it's not as easy to be honest with yourself as it looks if it comes to gear choice. So many things affect the final choice and ego plays a big part
PS. I listened to Rega RS7 and top Harbeth (40) on dealer presentation. Both sounded bad Harbeth was floppy (big plastic cones) and Rega had that modern "Zing" which I guess has to be present in the speakers nowadays other ways they won't sell to anybody south of 40. I'm not criticizing the speakers giving the following both brand has. Just never stumbled on really convincing system utilizing them. Rgrds

 

[audiojoy]

Thanks for all the advice, will try and carry out more extended listening. I have been switching quickly between the two.

Agreed 'zingy' close equivalent to 'one note treble'

Also agreed -just what i was thinking try the nait as the Rega speaker demonstrated that 'lag' in the more laid back Harbeth. It was clearly evident that PRAT was slightly slower and therefore slightly less informative about the musical piece and its inherent musical message from the Harbeth. I had already put a bid in for the naim nait 5i before i read the responses. The rega Brios did sound incredibly fast with a pair of Celefs (Proacs)I had in the garage, possibly fatser sounding and certainly more artificially so than with the Rega RS7.

PS my speaker history is as follows

Harbeth c7, avantgarde duo, Audio Note Silver E, audio physic avanti, quad electrostatics singly and stacked, neat petitie,Jean marie Reynaud offrande, Yamaha ns1000 (modded) DIY open baffle and Kudos C30..SO far to my ears the Harbeth was the best compromise. The best speaker for mid range was the Quads, most musical was probably the audio notes but very lean sound pre hemp cone mind you.Open Baffle was the most 'live' sounding speaker i have ever heard

 

[limono]

It is hard to beat open baffle in "life-likeness" at any price. My friend found combo of old console 15" plus horn tweeter alnico speakers on the curb and built a pair of OB I suggested (old Japanese design popularized by Joe Esmila ). His wife is tolerant ( but only to some degree so he keeps asking me about traditional speakers which would sound the same for reasonable money ...yeah " good luck I told him there are none"
I'm surprised you found AN-E lean. I had AN-E/L (pre -hemp) and they were OK with tube amps and with better hybrids (Blue circle) . They also had nice tonality but no match to vintage cones. AG duo is a very compromised design. No wonder you find Harbeths to be the best compromise .I got used to paper cones so much that I constantly hear this rubbery/plastic shimmer in the voicing of Harbeths (funny enough is less present in Spendors and proacs but still there)
I settled for Living Voice Avatars and their wooden bang and my fiancee likes the veneer so here ya go audiophilia down the drain.

 

[paskinn]

Nice to see an informed and sensible debate.....I have to say that,for me, many modern speakers have badly lost their way. Bright and aggressive. What is quite worrying is that the very finest sound (overall) I have heard comes from one of the oldest speakers.....Voigt corner horns. Used in an average sized room, with decent valve equipment, they have a natural midrange which astonishes even experiened modern listeners. I know a lot of people don't agree...but then I've never fogotten the long years when 'informed opinion' believed that the early Linn turntable was 'neutral.' If you need a modern speaker (and we do!) I would tend to agree that Harbeth and Audionote are among the best compromises.

 

[limono]

I know what you mean . For over two years I had Klipshorn bass bins and Lowther in big front Horn (Azura 202 hz) in the corners of my cave .The set had many shortcomings but at times was producing the most astonishing music I've heard from any system..It was open ,flowing free of electronic artifacts , bold and spacious. Of course there were other times when I wanted to take a chain saw and dispose of it (later I was told it's a perfectly typical Lowther owner behavior :0) .I assembled many horn system prototypes since that , objectively better but never close to that lowther 2/klipsch aura .
I think Voight corner horn produces similar vibe

 

[audiojoy]

I have tonight moved the RS7 speakers so that the bass drivers face inwards....boy what a fussy speaker. This Evened the tone out by filling in the midrange a fair bit and taming the brightness overall. Could not do much about the high frequency monochrome sound coming out of them though. But what did improve even further was its musicality. Its ability for you to see into the techniques used by the musician and vocalist in performing their arts. The emotional content if you like. Probably the most revealing speaker I have heard from this aspect ... within a very synergistic system set up of course.

If it had a better quality tweeter and a more fleshed out midrange this could have been a great speaker.

Within the limits of the manufacturing process it seems getting accurate tone and timbre will always be at the expense of speed?????

 

[M@ver1ck]

I find the rega speakers simply more joyful than the harbeths, tonal accuracy be damned!

 

[audiojoy]

alllllllllllllllllllmost agree

 

[ryder]

I find the rega speakers simply more joyful than the harbeths, tonal accuracy be damned!

I can understand your comment there as most speakers will be more upbeat and joyful than the Harbeths. One note though, the Harbeths are not the last word in tonal accuracy. They are natural sounding speakers, not neutral and quite coloured but natural, and there are few speakers that sound as consistent as the Harbeths when it comes to vocals apart from acoustic instruments such as saxophone, trumpet, acoustic guitars etc. These sound just come out more realistic on the Harbeths as others speakers either sound *slightly* metallic as if there is a coat of sheen on the surface, or too dull.

The shortcomings of the Harbeths (though die-hard Harbeth fans would disagree) are in the frequency extremes. The bass lines can be plodding with music that has fast and complex bass lines and drums don't sound as visceral when comparison is made to more dynamic speakers. As for the high-frequency extension, the treble is smooth and slightly rolled off which contributes much to low listening fatigue and renders poor/bright recordings more tolerable. However, all this comes at the expense of excitement, a boogie factor of some sort.

FWIW I have got the Dali Mentor Menuet in an attempt to complement some of the compromises in the Harbeth in the excitement department. The Dalis show a lot of potential and are a well balanced speaker. They do not sound too lean or analytical like the Proacs(sorry), and in some ways are more enjoyable than the Harbeth. Nevertheless, voices that come out from the Dalis do not sound as natural as the Harbeth. I don't know how Harbeth does it but human voice just sounds like the real thing through them. This is something that I have to give it to Harbeth. I have listened to many speakers and there is just something artificial about the sound presentation of most designs.

To each his own I guess. And to reiterate, there will be many speakers that sound more upbeat and joyful than the Harbeths, a fun factor sort of thing.

 

[dzeikei]

Ryder, don't you have Naim front end with Harbeths? I'm quite surprised if you are not getting upbeat sound with Naim gear. Of course there are more dynamic and faster modern designs but few been overall as enjoyable as Harbeths. Having owned also the Rega R7's I do not believe they are overall a match for SHL5s if the front end has ability to drive SHL5 properly. It shouldn't be a hard load but the amp needs to have really good grip in the bass. Otherwise the sound may become a bit too polite.

I've owned C7 and 40.1 and had a long periods of listening at home with P3ESR and SHL5. The fastest of them and most fun was C7 because of the lift in the upper bass region. It's really a rockin´ "little" monitor. SHL5 has more even sound with better treble and bass responde compared to C7. Still not as fun as C7. 40.1 has authority to die for in suitable space. Perhaps not the best speaker for rock or heavy metal but still very good as you can listen to every crappy melal recording you ever wish for without fatique. If one could combine the good atributes of SP100R2 and 40.1 I believe it would be my speaker for life .

Still not sure where to go now as I'm in the middle of buying a new pair of speakers. I'm sure I would love SHL5's but I also I may not get the attach I would wish for from Harbeths. I may try some PMCs too. I like natural sound as do most Harbeth owners. Not overly agressive but I still want decent attack and certain amount of distortion in the guitars when needed. Any suggestions welcome .

 

[limono]

No problem , my suggestion is 5 way proper horn system with subwoofers and dedicated amps . Horns are the most advanced speaker topology and actually the ONLY speaker topology worth bothering for end of life speaker system. rgrds, L

 

[dzeikei]

No problem , my suggestion is 5 way proper horn system with subwoofers and dedicated amps . Horns are the most advanced speaker topology and actually the ONLY speaker topology worth bothering for end of life speaker system. rgrds, L

Thanks for your suggestion but no horns please . To be honest I've heard one really good horn speaker for my tastes which was made by Acapella but cannot remember the model name. Most of the horns I've heard are too revealing as I tend to listen to crappy recordings too. Also most of them are floppy in the bass due to subs used for lower frequencies. I know there are really good horns but the really good ones most likely need a lot of space or are custom built and are really expensive and perhaps not the best match for my solid state amps.

 

[ryder]

Dzeikei, I do have Naim amps on the SHL5s and they sound most upbeat and lively compared to all other amps I've tried.

I like natural sound as do most Harbeth owners. Not overly agressive but I still want decent attack and certain amount of distortion in the guitars when needed. Any suggestions welcome .

To be honest I used to be in the same boat and feel the same way as you do in aspiring for more attack and bite in the sound, the raw plucking/distortion of guitars when called for. Due to the inherent character of the Harbeth, this edge is slightly smoothed off producing a rounded sound at the top. Due to this trait, some will find the Harbeths to be uninvolving, lacking the crucial fun factor of speakers that are more revealing in nature.

I have listened to other speakers such as ATCs, Ovator S400s and few more designs. Although these speakers managed to retain the attack and distortion or rawness in guitar sound, they don't sound like a Harbeth by far. The Wilson Sashas seem to show some promise but without an extended listening session nothing is conclusive.

 

[Plutox]

I don't know how Harbeth does it but human voice just sounds like the real thing through them. This is something that I have to give it to Harbeth. I have listened to many speakers and there is just something artificial about the sound presentation of most designs

It's mainly the proprietary cone material. Polypropylene, Bextrene and paper all have their characteristic sound - Harbeth use their own substance that does seem to work well.

As for the high-frequency extension, the treble is smooth and slightly rolled off which contributes much to low listening fatigue and renders poor/bright recordings more tolerable. However, all this comes at the expense of excitement, a boogie factor of some sort

Harbeth HF is demonstrably about right. Just listen to the sibilance content of human voices. Adding as little as .5dB at 12kHz can render a female voice rather unnatural.

If you feel you desire a little extra HF, it's probably achieved far more easily by the use of a small amount of controlled boost (i.e. a tone control, shock! horror!).

Are you of the iPod generation? Over toppy speakers seems, to me, to be a plague amongst many contemporary designs.