tuga
Legal Alien
My bet's on Trump.
Puzzling results with ATC SCM50ASLT loudspeakers vs. previous system
- Thread starter Matthew J
- Start date
lAmBoY
pfm Member
He'll grab 'em by the power supply
I’ve heard the same pair of SCM 100as in a studio control room through 3 rebuilds, first on ATC stands, then on more substantial home made stands, now soffit mounted. The changes in acoustic treatment and speaker positioning have made an unbelievable difference, the final iteration being VERY impressive. Sounding better than newer ATC 100ASLs in a much livelier listening room.
The room is very important.
The room is very important.
Dynamics and drive are not the problem here. The sound is smooth, slightly warm, rich and full. No discernable difference in that regard between driving the ATCs directly from the three DACs or from the Trichord Orca pre-amp.
The essential, um, aspects (trying not to write "quality" here
) of the sound does not change depending on volume, as you would expect it to if the the room was the fundamental problem. If the ATCs were sublime/wonderful/soundgasmic/etc at lower volumes and then awful at high volumes then yes, that would be bad room acoustics ruining the sound... but they're not.
Maybe I have Chinese knock-off SCM50ASLTs
The essential, um, aspects (trying not to write "quality" here
) of the sound does not change depending on volume, as you would expect it to if the the room was the fundamental problem. If the ATCs were sublime/wonderful/soundgasmic/etc at lower volumes and then awful at high volumes then yes, that would be bad room acoustics ruining the sound... but they're not.Maybe I have Chinese knock-off SCM50ASLTs
ian walker
Imfightingmywayoutofawetecho.
Yes i had a same issue with my active 100s.
I found the sound via my Linn akurate DSM to be a little small scale and "in the box".The ATC CA2 went a long way to cure it but not quite. Hearing Cookies ATCs with his benchmark dac 2 was the answer for me. Huge scale,proper weight to bass and slam to drums with lovely out of the box 3d sound stage .A big suprise to me as i thought the linn katalyst dac would be hard to beat.
Ian.
I really would love to hear these loudspeakers in a setup that shows them at their best. Genuinely. If I could then I'd be tempted to keep them and invest in building a source systm with which they could shine.
I sold my house on Tuesday, after a year of it being on the market, so the current listening room in the next house will be chosen/modified/built with acoustics in mind.
Before throwing more money at the problem, I would need to know that these things are capable of re-creating music in the way that I (whihc yes is the way around I should have done this from the start).
I sold my house on Tuesday, after a year of it being on the market, so the current listening room in the next house will be chosen/modified/built with acoustics in mind.
Before throwing more money at the problem, I would need to know that these things are capable of re-creating music in the way that I (whihc yes is the way around I should have done this from the start).
Patu
pfm Member
So a week ago I moved the ATCs out of the room and went back to the old system and listened to much the same music.
A few observations that the R50s:
Are a bit harder and quite a bit brighter
Less full sounding
Not as fecking relentless as the ATCs and so easier to listen to over time (although this was resolved with the ATCs by using the Topping DAC instead of the SMSL)
Greater vertical dispersion
Less energy into the room
Lighter bass
Slightly slower bass (but not much)
Sound fine at the 70dB to 90dB levels that suit me
Less separation of instruments
Less feeling of depth
I then tested ATCs with the Chord Qutest, which is a low output impedance DAC. The ATC's input sensitivity was reduced to 1v, Qutest's output voltage was reduced to 1v, connected the Qutest directly to the ATCs and controlled volume output on the NP5 via DLNA. Result was a dark, slightly mushy and somewhat lifeless sound. Not an improvement. Reluctantly, I did end up playing around with the ATC's input sensitivity an the Qutest's output voltage but the result was the same. So much for the output impedance theory.
For the past three or so days I have been listening to the ATCs via the Topping DAC with no change to report.
When I unpacked the ATCs I did notice that the mains cables had clearly never been used, so I swapped in the "audiophile" mains cables that came with my Alectos and to my surprise, that did seem to iimprove the sound by making it easier to listen to and smoother, but essentially it was a variation on the sound rather than a wholesale improvement. But then I might have imagined it
I've played with the ATC input sensitivity setting also. Without calibration, you can either have it at 1V (default) or 2V, which is the maximum. It can be adjusted to anything inbetween, but if you want something like 1.4V, then you must be able to calibrate and match both speakers. With 2V, and pretty much with all gear I've tried this with, the ATC's sound darker, softer and smoother. This is pretty logical since at 2V, the preamp must work much harder for the same volume levels. With 1V the ATC's have more agile, transparent and dynamic sound. I recommend leaving this setting to 1V, unless using a preamp with extremely hot outputs. And even in that case, it'd probably be better to change the preamp.
And yes, power cord (and power extension block) does matter. Quite a lot with ATC's actually. I've played with several different power cables and they have clear impact to the sound quality. The stock cables are slightly thin and harsh sounding IMO. Interconnect cables matter at least as much. I recommend to experiment with different options. With interconnect cables, you don't have to spend fortunes. Proper pro audio XLR-cables can be great already. I use Oyaide Tunami Terzo V2's, which are not cheap but not high end prices either.
And you just have to consider room and the acoustics. Active ATC's give you so powerful sound that it's no surprise that they excite room modes. I have a nasty room mode around 36hz and since it's so low, it can't be tamed with a reasonable amount of bass traps (in a living room). I use an advanced DSP method to fix frequencies below ~200hz and the result is excellent.
I have the Mogami balanced cables, as used extensively by others on here.
At some point (not now) someone needs to explain why changing the last 1 metre of copper between the wall socket and the device can make a difference to sound quality. It just does not make sense.
At some point (not now) someone needs to explain why changing the last 1 metre of copper between the wall socket and the device can make a difference to sound quality. It just does not make sense.
darrenyeats
pfm Member
First, I was trying to help.
Second, I feel my output impedance idea is still alive and kicking. The only significant difference in front end you've reported so far, was with the only low output impedance device (I quote "dark, slightly mushy and somewhat lifeless"!) I'll take that Matthew.
Because if you'd been *loving* the 50s and it spoiled it, that would be bad. But the 50s weren't vibing with your room/ears in the first place for whatever reason, so I don't read too much into the perceived direction of change.
Is that fair?
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Sorry - that did come across as negative. I was grateful for your help and time.
The issue is that, in the same sub-optimal room but with decent source components, I am not hearing a significant improvement in sound quality above my old system. The biggest difference seems to be one of frequency response and if that were equalised then the improvement in music re-creation (as defined by all the metrics others have used here and elsewhere) would not match their RRP or reputation (I have already retracted my previous "indistinguishable" claim).
In no way am I suggesting the the ATCs are worse or not an improvement, but I am saying that, in this situation, they're not enough of an improvement given their price tag. I have yet to experience what others have glowingly written about or what one might expect from a £16,000 paid of of loudspeakers. If that sound quality were present then you'd hear some of it regardless of the room.
I don't doubt what others are hearing and hopefully one day I can experience a pair of these where the sound I hear matches their reputation.
The issue is that, in the same sub-optimal room but with decent source components, I am not hearing a significant improvement in sound quality above my old system. The biggest difference seems to be one of frequency response and if that were equalised then the improvement in music re-creation (as defined by all the metrics others have used here and elsewhere) would not match their RRP or reputation (I have already retracted my previous "indistinguishable" claim).
In no way am I suggesting the the ATCs are worse or not an improvement, but I am saying that, in this situation, they're not enough of an improvement given their price tag. I have yet to experience what others have glowingly written about or what one might expect from a £16,000 paid of of loudspeakers. If that sound quality were present then you'd hear some of it regardless of the room.
I don't doubt what others are hearing and hopefully one day I can experience a pair of these where the sound I hear matches their reputation.
darrenyeats
pfm Member
I don't think you've read all the posts - no difference was heard using a preamp with the other DACs. Only the Qutest.It’s good that you’re experimenting but has anyone told yet that this was… obvious
Don't think of that section somehow purifying the mains. Think of the nested RF/EMI noise environment your components share on their upstream power side and how cable and shield wiring there involve it and affect them. This is especially important for sources and line amplification.
Audio grounding is wildly cumbersome and variable in multi-box systems. And audible.
Patu
pfm Member
It’s not the last metre. From the equipment point of view, it’s the first metre
Also electricity doesn’t flow from point a to b, as many seem to think. What comes out from your wall socket is given, everything after that matters. But yeah, no need to start the power cable argument here.