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Puzzling results with ATC SCM50ASLT loudspeakers vs. previous system

Accuracy in audio, is a misnomer. Accurate to what, a live performance in a specific location experienced from a specific seat in the venue? Accurate to what's heard in the studio through via the speakers on the mixing desk? From the seat at the control desk in the mastering studio?

As the last hand in the tiller in production I guess it's the mastering engineer's experience that were trying to match, but we have no way of knowing what that was so we have to settle for accurate to the signal on the recorded media as distributed.
Because there is no technical accuracy it is indeed a misnomer. As it's commonly used around audio objectivism, accuracy is a misleading assumption that makes artificial distinctions. It says this is accurate but that is not accurate when technically neither can be. Instead it is a subjective opinion of that data or state or condition.
Now there's a myriad of metrics for measuring that accurately, none of which the ear is capable of doing. All the listener can say is whether they like/prefer the outcome.

Ears aren't a measuring device, and any claim otherwise is just hyperbole. The statement "this sounds more accurate to me" is utterly meaningless.
On the other hand, it's been rightly said that hearing a sufficiently refined playback induces an involuntary reaction in a listener. As others have said in this thread, that sense is why we do this. We have an innate, undeniable sense of what real sounds like and as we advance toward it our subconscious will naturally tell us.

One of objectivism's odder positions is that better sound stems from making one of those faulty, data-driven decisions because the ear is so incompetent and faulty that it cannot be trusted. Unless objectivism isn't about sound at all, which many of us are beginning to conclude.

While the misnomer "accuracy", as a projected, very limited "objective" technical data framework, has little place in the analysis and while it leads some to incorrect conclusions, hearing is undeniably the goal. "This sounds more accurate to me" is therefore the only meaningful gauge there is; after all what are we serving? Why uniquely in audio must we reject human feedback when it serves everywhere else?
 
To the OP, if your mate from work heard both of your systems in isolation he would probably say both were effing great. Use your own personal 'smile per pound' measurement. You will be happier with the best smile ratio against pounds spent, plus wiser in the knowledge that you experimented and came to the logical conclusion. Note this only works if you value money, and I think you probably do:)
 
It's been very interesting to read some of the comments about my old system.……
….So the R50s were composed of a set of drive units that were well respected in their day and still have the chops in 2024.
Matthew J - I’m a bit late to this party and it’s Weds (ATC hand back option day).

I can’t give you any wisdom on your gear other than to comment on the Cambridge Audio R50s. My dear old dad bought a pair new in 1973 and gave them to me in the mid 80’s. I ran them with enjoyment, and in the mid 90’s, helped and encouraged by a hi-fi enthusiast, replaced the cross-over with the Falcon version and put new tweeters in. This breathed significant life into the R50s. At that time I ran them with an LP12 and Naim 52/250 amps.

In 1998 I wanted to scratch a Brik itch and got a tidy pair of those. They present very differently and I still have them. I have often wondered about changing them (obviously there are better speakers out there) but reckon I’d have to spend a good sum of money to improve on them. I gave my R50s to a friend on the basis he would cherish them, and he has. Since then I now run Naim 552/500 amps.

Last year I got to borrow the R50s back for a week, just for ‘auld lang syne’. Honestly I was astonished how great they are. On the end of 500 series Naim stuff they are gorgeous. I could live with them again no question. I completely understand what you say about soundstage and ‘air’ (despite the protestations from some).

So, yes your R50s have the chops still in my view, and will give you a lot more if you shove more in from upstream - none of which I can help with. Depending on where you live you are welcome to bring the R50s here (Staffs) to hear them in a different room on different gear, if that helps.

I wish you the best in your listening choices.
 
Why uniquely in audio must we reject human feedback when it serves everywhere else?
We don't. Subjective testing is super important; however when it comes to assessing the impact of a system change this must be done blind for reliable results. I am not sure why uniquely in audio blind tests are rejected when they serve everywhere else - except perhaps wine tasting :)
 
So a week ago I moved the ATCs out of the room and went back to the old system and listened to much the same music.

A few observations that the R50s:

Are a bit harder and quite a bit brighter
Less full sounding
Not as fecking relentless as the ATCs and so easier to listen to over time (although this was resolved with the ATCs by using the Topping DAC instead of the SMSL)
Greater vertical dispersion
Less energy into the room
Lighter bass
Slightly slower bass (but not much)
Sound fine at the 70dB to 90dB levels that suit me
Less separation of instruments
Less feeling of depth

I then tested ATCs with the Chord Qutest, which is a low output impedance DAC. The ATC's input sensitivity was reduced to 1v, Qutest's output voltage was reduced to 1v, connected the Qutest directly to the ATCs and controlled volume output on the NP5 via DLNA. Result was a dark, slightly mushy and somewhat lifeless sound. Not an improvement. Reluctantly, I did end up playing around with the ATC's input sensitivity an the Qutest's output voltage but the result was the same. So much for the output impedance theory.

For the past three or so days I have been listening to the ATCs via the Topping DAC with no change to report.

When I unpacked the ATCs I did notice that the mains cables had clearly never been used, so I swapped in the "audiophile" mains cables that came with my Alectos and to my surprise, that did seem to iimprove the sound by making it easier to listen to and smoother, but essentially it was a variation on the sound rather than a wholesale improvement. But then I might have imagined it :D
 
Have you considered spending a fair amount on some room treatment ( a la GIK Acoustics) after some proper room measurements? Seems worthwhile with speakers at this level of performance.
 
While I do not diminish the inportance of room treatment, and I acknowledge that the acoustics of this listeing room are far from ideal, I am sure now that the fundamentals of the sound I want are not present in these loudspeakers.
Last day to return them?
 
While I do not diminish the inportance of room treatment, and I acknowledge that the acoustics of this listeing room are far from ideal, I am sure now that the fundamentals of the sound I want are not present in these loudspeakers.

I went through exactly this with the Dynaudio Heritage Specials. Every review, every person told me how amazing they were. And in many regards I can understand why they are highly rated. But I wasn't enjoying half my music on them. If the fundamental sound isn't doing it for you why waste your time trying to get them to play ball? (Assuming attached gear is not a total mismatch, or course) Did I get them sounding better tinkering with amps etc? Yes. Did the fundamental sound change? Not really. There's only so much salt and sauce you can put on your dinner before you have to say hang on, I don't actually like this food.
 
While I do not diminish the inportance of room treatment, and I acknowledge that the acoustics of this listeing room are far from ideal, I am sure now that the fundamentals of the sound I want are not present in these loudspeakers.
I don't want to rush to any conclusions but maybe you should try some other speakers.
 
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It just sounds they are not for you. I’m not familiar with the rest of the kit you are using so we could have massively differing tastes.

At least you know.
 
Matthew kindly invited me over to hear his speakers today (Hi Matthew). My diy speakers are a 3-way with a 10" woofer and a soft dome midrange, so relatively similar to the ATC. Mine are passive though.
When I was fine-tuning the crossovers on my own diy speakers, I had a selection of test tracks I would play. I put a small selection of those on a USB stick and took them over to Mathews's place.

The speakers look very nice, and professionally built. Apparently very heavy too.
I will say that apart from two fabric sofas, the place is quite sparse, with a solid floor. We were listening relatively nearfield, and the speaker were well away from side walls, so most of the direct sound was getting to our ears before reflections.

The first track we listened to was Homesick by Catfish & the Bottlemen. When I took my first ever diy speakers to Scalford, someone brought in this CD, and it was the worst sound I had all day. Just a big, very harsh, loud mess. I couldn't wait for them to leave the room. On my current system at home, it actually sounds very good... And like my first speakers, it was a big, horrible mess through the ATCs. I immediately grabbed the remote and turned it down! Not a good start.

We played Maria Mckee - If love is a red dress - That sounded as it should. The room may have joined in a bit at times, but the ATCs did that well

Chris Isaak - blue Spanish Sky - That sounds great on anything to be honest, and did on the ATCs

Kings of Leon - Manhatton - Being picky, vocals were maybe a touch thin/shouty, but pretty good overall.

Sinéad O’Connor - Troy - I also thought this sounded pretty much as it should.

Louis Armstrong - What a Wonderful World - Maybe a little bit more spitty than I think it should be, but overall pretty good.

Coldplay - Magic - Bass and vocals sounded right.

Crash Test Dummies - Two Knight and Maidens - Vocals good, but things got a little messy on busy parts.

Nine Inch Nails - Into the Void - This track can hit hard and goes deep, but seemed to lack a bit of bass through the ATCs, which surprised me because other tracks were fine in this regard - Strange!

The Rolling Stones - Beast of Burden - A bit thin and a bit messy when things were busy. Not terrible though.

Eva Cassidy - You've changed - sounded good to me.

Annie Lennox - Georgia on my Mind - That sounded great. Nice, powerful, forward vocal. Annie can really belt it out.

I can't remember what tracks this happened with, but some stuff was very 2d and flat sounding, with a narrow soundstage. Not something I would have expected from a £16,000 pair of speakers, but what do I know.

With Homesick sounding as terrible as it did, I can't possibly see how it could be a room thing. It was far, far too pronounced. Some stuff sounded great, and I can see why people would love these speakers, but I can also see why some wouldn't like them.

I think Matthew is making the right choice, sending them back.
 
We don't. Subjective testing is super important; however when it comes to assessing the impact of a system change this must be done blind for reliable results. I am not sure why uniquely in audio blind tests are rejected when they serve everywhere else - except perhaps wine tasting :)
Listening to the system or making changes to hear is a perfectly normal human endeavor. Without qualifying it "subjective testing" is a questionable value, as is the claim that one must be blinded. What for? As Phyztech alluded, this isn't a lab and the subject isn't unconscious of the results.

Quite the contrary. He or she is not so ill-equipped that he or she will get better results relegating the outcome to something other than personal musical satisfaction.

Things like blind, level-matched, and even testing are assumptions objectivists assume apply. In reality the only procedure that matters is hearing it. If I run past ten systems and one of them stands out then that's the one that stands out.

I'm not sure why uniquely in audio blind tests are required, submitting the listener to a battery of conditions that have nothing to do with how we use and enjoy these apparatuses.
 
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BTW: it seems that the buzzing heard when the ATCs were connected to the Trichord Orca via RCA --> XLR cables was due to the pre-amp itself. I tested the same cables with the RCA output from the Topping and SMSL DACs and heard no buzzing.
I haven’t read past page 7 (yet) but picking up from there, the Orca is an excellent preamp but very high gain. It’ll reveal any buzz available.

Unlike some, I’m familiar with your passive system, having owned half of it, ironically, bar the speakers. If going active I’d get Genelecs with built in room correction, but I would say that since it’s what I did.
 
A couple of evenings ago I listened to Stephen Hough and Steven Isserlis playing Franck’s Sonata for Cello and Piano on my ATC SCM50 ASLTs. It was the most wonderful, connected, overwhelming, intense experience. My body and spirit still shake with the memory of it. I feel truly blessed and privileged to have such an experience available to me at home. Maybe there’s something wrong with me or my hifi.
 
A couple of evenings ago I listened to Stephen Hough and Steven Isserlis playing Franck’s Sonata for Cello and Piano on my ATC SCM50 ASLTs. it was the most wonderful, connected, overwhelming, intense experience. My body and spirit still shake with the memory of it. I feel truly blessed and privileged to have such an experience available to me at home. Maybe there’s something wrong with me or my hifi.
How wonderful to read this post, not so much about the hifi but what it is for - bringing great musical experiences into our homes.
 


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