Puzzling results with ATC SCM50ASLT loudspeakers vs. previous system
- Thread starter Matthew J
- Start date
John Phillips
pfm Member
Just as a start, they use the rather rare Trans Nova architecture.
I have done some investigations to understand a bit about why they are different from usual and how they meet the requirements of their purpose and market. I don't think I could easily summarise the rest of my findings in short enough text for this forum, though.
Perhaps that's not what you meant by "special", although I think it is what @evand was writing about. IMHO they are definitely designed for their purpose and target market. As an engineer that impresses me and counts as special in my book.
So why ask the question when you have such great expertise?
If only everyone was as knowledgeable as yourself eh?
They are designed to drive their speakers as opposed to a standard amp which may or may not match the intended speaker.
I like things to just work rather than fret about system matching.
They go pretty well with naim & obviously their own amps. I don’t believe they are fussy in this regard.
S-Man
StrivingON
Yes, interesting architecture although I’m not aware of any real benefits compared to more traditional architectures when driving a speaker unit.
FWIW we used an ATC power amp when comparing SCM7s to other speakers (using an electronic crossover to stereo bass extenders). My mate’s H&H mosfet amp sounded pretty similar.
herb
brain's right hemisphere
Naim amplifiers sound different to my 150 wpc integrated with Harbeth C7s. Exposure amps definitely have a different sound signature in my experience.
When taken out of context those words do seem ridiculous. However, initial comparisons between my old system and the ATCs suggested that they were more similar than different in terms of my key fidelity attributes and that the distinction related mainly to the character of presentation: primarily frequency response. Thus with DSP to adjust the response curve and a higher-quality crossover (agreed, no guarantee of a sonic improvement) the character of the two systems could be more closely aligned and sound similar. Conjecture yes but then you haven't heard the old system.
"Indistinguishable" was the wrong word but hopefully the paragraph above explains the thinking.
Like I stated from the start: this is "not an anti-ATC post".
Subsequent listening and adjustment has of course revealed more subtleties between the two systems.
Snobby? And yet you had to explain your absolutism to try and revise it.
As regards the digital domain, over the same 40 years I mentioned it has amply proved itself less of its original, advertised Perfect Sound Forever than any other. Audibly and through any set of competent speakers. It is 2024 after all and just look at it.
Key or a key? I ask because the same absolutist myth that plagues speakers-are-everything also plagues the parallel belief that rooms are primarily important. They are not primarily important.
I've bookmarked your remarks link for handy future reference.
I readily accept that inferior beliefs on inferior audio exist. The fact remains that in the better tiers of audio reproduction, intense attention to everything upstream of the speakers - which is to say that any competent speaker will pass its proximate sound - is not only common, it is accepted practice. This observed, confirmed reality is not going to disappear just because a cohort denies it exists. It even (or especially) exists among speaker people.
The belief that speakers are absolutely primary is a lower-level audio tier belief wherein apparently resolution and fidelity aren't good enough to make effects upstream of speakers sufficiently important. That's a sensible view and I fail to see why it's not acceptable. That is also my belief as I don't spend a lot of time in AVR-land or with systems heavily unbalanced in favor of overpowered or oversized or over-technologied speaker systems driven by a scant thousand dollars of upstream equipment.
That's not snobbery speaking; it's the stark reality, practiced for decades among tens of thousands of experienced listeners, that a good speaker just has more than enough resolution to replay what its fed. Doesn't it?
Why wouldn't it? What specific physics prevent a LS3/5a, for example, from replaying the scores of different effects presented it by its sources, if not simple loudness and frequency extremes, mostly in the lowermost octaves? Where did the information go, out the port? Up in heat? Dumped in the crossover? Where then?
Where do speakers then become heavily weighted? In matters of loudness and frequency extreme. They don't have a fundamental characteristic that disappears music, at the same time that a vast body of open-minded evidence has for years found that everything else has a sound, meaning what's running and what's running into your presumably competent speakers.
Bravo, that’s true and obvious for anyone who composed systems in different rooms.I don’t doubt that but I thought I was answering a particular point about ATC speakers. Different can be better or just, err, different.
Wow, what a pompous person you are.
I get far more enjoyment from digital sources these days, just far more consistent & faithful. Of course speakers are important as are how they work within a room. Rooms are pretty vital otherwise we listen outside?
Analogue is far from perfect, just look at an average LP12 thread.
You can bookmark whatever you want. I’ll not be reading any more of your inane utterings.
I never interpreted your post as anti anything it just that if anyone dares to say it could be something other than the speakers the usual happened.
There’s a lot of good kit out there, some it is not to my taste or I’m just not interested for whatever reason. I’ve never been remotely bothered about trying valves or horns but others think it’s the one true path etc.
I actually really like Tony’s approach to hifi even though it’s pretty much the opposite of what I have.
Patu
pfm Member
Few notes from an ATC user of 10 years (40 -> 40A -> 50ASL). Yes, ATC's are very revealing and transparent and can even sound harsh with bad recordings. But this is mostly because of bad matching with the rest of the gear. Use proper electronics and cabling which suit your sound quality preferences and you can listen to the bad recordings also. And yes, cabling can make a clear difference to their sound (power and interconnects).
Also someone mentioned component isolation. The matter of coupling or decoupling the speakers with the floor also makes a difference. But this is something you should probably look into only after everything else is properly configured.
Also someone mentioned component isolation. The matter of coupling or decoupling the speakers with the floor also makes a difference. But this is something you should probably look into only after everything else is properly configured.
Not only have I carefully bookmarked your ongoing audio commentary as valuable reference material, I'll be sure to keep an eye on it for its equally incisive and astute character assessments as well.
Here’s a review of ATC SCM50 Active vs passive driven by a full Monty naim rig.
“The short answer is that the actives won on solidity of soundstage, neutrality, and ultimate detail retrieval—that ability to hear the lowest-level subtleties of a mix. The Naim combination offered more bass slam, fractionally quicker transient response, and slightly more drama. With the Naim rig, I got the sense that the sound was slightly larger than life, whereas the ATC active configuration was more neutral. I will be honest here—in over 20 years of reviewing, I have never been so unsure of which presentation I preferred. ”
“In summary, the ATC SCM50 is a benchmark design and a world-class loudspeaker, whether driven actively or passively. In the active configuration, it represents an incredible bargain in the high-end audio field—and that would be my choice if I were laying my money down. In my experience, there’s no other loudspeaker that comes even close to its immense power, neutrality, bandwidth, speed, and sheer visceral impact at anywhere near the price. If you choose to go the passive route, expect to budget significantly more than the $8000 difference in cost between the active and passive SCM50 variants for your amplification. The big Naim combination powering the passive SCM50s offered stunning sound—at significant cost—and the transparency of the ATC loudspeakers allowed all the virtues cherished by Naim enthusiasts to really shine“
“The short answer is that the actives won on solidity of soundstage, neutrality, and ultimate detail retrieval—that ability to hear the lowest-level subtleties of a mix. The Naim combination offered more bass slam, fractionally quicker transient response, and slightly more drama. With the Naim rig, I got the sense that the sound was slightly larger than life, whereas the ATC active configuration was more neutral. I will be honest here—in over 20 years of reviewing, I have never been so unsure of which presentation I preferred. ”
“In summary, the ATC SCM50 is a benchmark design and a world-class loudspeaker, whether driven actively or passively. In the active configuration, it represents an incredible bargain in the high-end audio field—and that would be my choice if I were laying my money down. In my experience, there’s no other loudspeaker that comes even close to its immense power, neutrality, bandwidth, speed, and sheer visceral impact at anywhere near the price. If you choose to go the passive route, expect to budget significantly more than the $8000 difference in cost between the active and passive SCM50 variants for your amplification. The big Naim combination powering the passive SCM50s offered stunning sound—at significant cost—and the transparency of the ATC loudspeakers allowed all the virtues cherished by Naim enthusiasts to really shine“
He forgot to mention all the "air"
herb
brain's right hemisphere
I remember how much detail my Quad 57s recovered, sounds very similar.
Patu
pfm Member
I’ve used IsoAcoustic GAIA II with 40A’s and tested GAIA I on 50ASL. Now I use Stack Audio Auva 50’s with 50ASL but for a long time had spikes + Linn Skeets on top of a 3cm thick granite slabs.
Either couple to something with as much mass as possible (concrete floor, granite slabs etc.) or then try to decouple with likes of GAIA and Auva.