Puzzling results with ATC SCM50ASLT loudspeakers vs. previous system

[slawekt]

I cannot unfortunately. As the typical frequency response graphs say very little in fact about musical experience.

This graph should help with frequency response analysis:

"10 octaves of the frequency spectrum. It also includes the types of instruments that will play in those ranges along with their center frequency, also note the cautionary tones. These are great to know so that you can better comprehend what you’re listening to, especially while engaged in critical listening."

I'd also recommend reading some papers from dr Floyd Toole AES/Harman

 

[slawekt]

I cannot unfortunately. As the typical frequency response graphs say very little in fact about musical experience.

This is an interesting read too:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/measuring-loudspeakers-part-two-page-4

 

[tuga]

how else would you compare speakers if not positioned in exactly same spot?

Well, each speaker has an optimal position in the room.
Besides, some topologies require very specific positioning to work as intended.

 

[slawekt]

Well, each speaker has an optimal position in the room.
Besides, some topologies require very specific positioning to work as intended.

Post 210

 

[tuga]

No,

Have a look at his website.
Quite a lot of research and factual information instead of the usual cråp one gets from YouTubers and webzines.

 

[Joe]

So just some DIY guy? I just can’t begin to be bothered.

I can think of many many brands that we now revere that started out as one man band DIY'ed products. So can you I am sure.

Linn ,Naim and ATC for certain.

 

[slawekt]

I can think of many many brands that we now revere that started out as one man band DIY'ed products. So can you I am sure.

Linn ,Naim and ATC for certain.

there are quite few guys working previously for Audio Research, McIntosh etc.. on DIYAudio , another well known name Joachim Gerhard- Audio Physics founder/designer is quite active on there too

 

[tuga]

Post 210

Below Schroeder the room impacts the sound of the speakers, not just the room dimensions but also the boundary fabric/construction and the amount and size of openings (doors and windows).
For this reason using a microphone is far more effective than a simulator (e.g. Linn S.O.).

Speaker to boundaries distance and listener to boundaries distance and listener to speakers distance will all affect the bass response (e.g. changing stand/woofer height or even seat height).
Different types of enclosure and even reflex tuning frequency and damping will also affect positioning.

Above Schroeder directivity takes over and that also affects positioning.

 

[slawekt]

Below Schroeder the room impacts the sound of the speakers, not just the room dimensions but also the boundary fabric/construction and the amount and size of openings (doors and windows).
For this reason using a microphone is far more effective than a simulator (e.g. Linn S.O.).

Speaker to boundaries distance and listener to boundaries distance and listener to speakers distance will all affect the bass response (e.g. changing stand/woofer height or even seat height).
Different types of enclosure and even reflex tuning frequency and damping will also affect positioning.

Above Schroeder directivity takes over and that also affects positioning.

Sorry but I'm not certain what do you mean , speakers were positioned using calibrated microphone measurements as I mentioned in the said post, directivity with KEF reference speakers don't make huge difference - both firing at the same angle vs listening position , room has been treated at first reflection points, both sets of speakers with bass reflex port, similar tuning frequency , same speakers stands btw so reflection from the floor/ceiling quite similar

 

[camverton]

Among a particular user group there is a persistent belief that rooms are somehow primarily important. They're not primarily important either rationally or in practice. What the speaker does first is obviously paramount.

This is both a reliable logical presumption and the product of countless user experiences. It doesn't diminish the problems rooms can cause at all, but it's counterproductive that obsessive attention is paid to rooms in which obviously compromised systems will be used. It's unbalanced.

Put another way, if rooms are so staggeringly important, why can sublime systems sound so fantastic in theoretically compromised spaces while garden variety systems only manage average level musical realism in well-prepared spaces?

There are beliefs and then there is practice. Fine audio doesn't tend to honor belief; most of the time it is fine audio stems from factors that conflict expectation. That's a compelling reason to pursue it.

As a belief your opinions are quite interesting, albeit contrary to my experience of many different speakers and speaker types in the five different houses I’ve owned over the years and the different rooms within them. To get the best results from a hifi system I’ve found it best to consider the speaker and the room it is going to be used in together. In my current house I have speakers that sound great in one room but not at all good in another.

To be fair the rooms vary greatly in size, openings, ceiling slopes and floor covering and the speakers range from Kef LS5a through dipoles to omnis with varying sizes of bass units. IME the room plays a big part in how each speaker sounds when each is set up in the optimal position in each room. It would take a huge belief for me to think otherwise!

 

[slawekt]

For this reason using a microphone is far more effective than a simulator (e.g. Linn S.O.).

Linn SO is not perfect but usable with fairly good results as long as you measure response and tweak filters, definitely helps minimizing room modes effect- I use it when streaming btw. You can alter severity of the filters quite easily and make it work but it isn't Dirac for sure and I wonder when Linn would admit it was a mistake not include real world measurements in their Space Optimization.

 

[tuga]

Sorry but I'm not certain what do you mean , speakers were positioned using calibrated microphone measurements as I mentioned in the said post, directivity with KEF reference speakers don't make huge difference - both firing at the same angle vs listening position , room has been treated at first reflection points, both sets of speakers with bass reflex port, similar tuning frequency , same speakers stands btw so reflection from the floor/ceiling quite similar

Which speakers were you comparing

 

[tuga]

Linn SO is not perfect but usable with fairly good results as long as you measure response and tweak filters, definitely helps minimizing room modes effect- I use it when streaming btw. You can alter severity of the filters quite easily and make it work but it isn't Dirac for sure and I wonder when Linn would admit it was a mistake not include real world measurements in their Space Optimization.

We are agreeing that a mic/ acoustic measurements is/ are necessary

 

[slawekt]

Which speakers were you comparing

Reference 201/2 and Reference 1, I bought 201/2s when they came out but didn't work in my new room

 

[slawekt]

We are agreeing that a mic/ acoustic measurements is/ are necessary

I have never said it wasn't

 

[tuga]

Reference 201/2 and Reference 1, I bought 201/2s when they came out but didn't work in my new room

How far do you have the Ref1s from the rear wall and which port length have you chosen?
I can’t have my Ref3s further out than 95cm (front wall to baffle) and got better results by pushing them back and compensating the gain with EQ.

 

[Eoin]

In 40 years I've yet to encounter a single experienced listener working with the better gear who hasn't agreed that very, very good sources and electronics are more important than loudspeakers. Even speaker designers will tell you that.

Speakers have more to do with size and scale than with some as-yet undetermined sound quality the speaker-first guys (and their typically cheap AVR's) assume are so important. If bass and loudness are all you can appreciate then so be it, but for musical refinement and meaning it's always what's going into speakers and how that matters most.

I’ve no skin in the game on this, however I’ve got a reasonable set of sources and a freshly serviced quad 606. Using a £60 pair of small Ruark standmounts the presentation was extraordinary.

I’d bought them cheap for my brother and popped them in to check.

So with good electronics even less expensive speakers can be very good.

Whether the reverse is true (do high end speakers NEED good electronics?) I could not comment on.

 

[slawekt]

How far do you have the Ref1s from the rear wall and which port length have you chosen?
I can’t have my Ref3s further out than 95cm (front wall to baffle) and got better results by pushing them back and compensating the gain with EQ.

mine are similar distance from the front wall-97cm , equilateral angle -2.2m, slightly toed-in and long ports - short ones kick 55Hz peak right to the sky.
Linn SO is used only when streaming so couldn't push them back any further as vinyl replay became unlistenable , I've tried in the past MiniDSP and bi-amping bass driver with EQ but couldn't get past latency at crossover point

 

[FN19]

There does seem to be a misconception of what is expected of ATC through this feed, also the view of the active amps within them.

 

[slawekt]

How far do you have the Ref1s from the rear wall and which port length have you chosen?
I can’t have my Ref3s further out than 95cm (front wall to baffle) and got better results by pushing them back and compensating the gain with EQ.

At the moment I'm trying them with bunged BR on the offending speaker with no Linn SO when streaming