PSA - Britain's broken economy - Monday 1st July 9.00pm Channel 4

[Tony L]

^^ AI and robotics will partially fill this age imbalance.

If trickle-down economics has taught us one thing it is that trickle-down economics doesn’t work. Any profits from AI and robotics will end up in some billionaire’s bank account in the Cayman Islands with a few hundred-£k in Tory back-pockets for keeping the tax loopholes open.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

^^ AI and robotics will partially fill this age imbalance.

I confess to not having much faith in Amplified Idiocy. I'd avoid treating it as a magical cure-all orGhod coming to save us from our own carefully generated Idiocy. GIGO. It may also eat a *lot* of resources hidden from view. Server farms...

That said, with luck Josephson Junction based logic may help with that in a decade or two if we can get past the CC. (cf IEEE Spectrum)

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

If trickle-down economics has taught us one thing it is that trickle-down economics doesn’t work. Any profits from AI and robotics will end up in some billionaire’s bank account in the Cayman Islands with a few hundred-£k in Tory back-pockets for keeping the tax loopholes open.

For the AI to work it has to essentially hoover up all our knowledge and skills... then 'owned' by those who own the system it uses, not by the mere users... who might now be out of a job that AI can do cheaper and faster.

 

[Minio]

But Royal Mail failed to deliver postal vote forms on time - poor performance.

In my day (1982-2004) you had to make all deliveries by 9.30am and you could set your watch by the time the letters were put through your letter box.

Sorry but Royal Mail needs to improve. This is what the programme was saying.

Posted mine back to the council over two weeks ago.

 

[Tony L]

Many of those 'non productive' types may actually be doing voluntary work or looking after grandchildren while their children go to work. So it isn't as simple as the above presumes.

I’m not criticising pensioners at all, much of my business user demographic are in this category, and I’m only five or six years (can’t remember my retirement date) away myself! I’m really not trying to upset anyone here.

I’m just pointing out a harsh economic reality that the current age balance in countries like the UK and Japan is not sustainable. It is *way* out of kilter and needs addressing with (young) immigration. There are huge gaps as many of my and younger generations never had the financial stability or time to have a family.

These are the charts people should be looking at:

Demographics of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kirk]

We know that the productivity gap between Britain and its competitors is nothing to do with employees “sitting on their arses” but a failure to invest in technology and instead relying on low paid unskilled workers and outdated processes.

The British Disease Part Deux.

 

[Minio]

While Kier Starmer considers Friday as POETS day he could consider Greece's move to a 6 day week to increase economic output.
That should go down well with his union mates.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

On this occasion you may be excused but surely you get the point.

Your point is obvious, but you appear not to have got mine, which is less so. Hint: investment in better healthcare is also a productivity win.

 

[Mick P]

Your point is obvious, but you appear not to have got mine, which is less so. Hint: investment in better healthcare is also a productivity win.

There are loads of initiatives the UK could take to boost productivity, there is no question of that. However a major cause is people gawping on the net on non business topics.

But yes management can take more initiatives so the blame is spread across the full spectrum.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

There are loads of initiatives the UK could take to boost productivity, there is no question of that. However a major cause is people gawping on the net on non business topics.

But yes management can take more initiatives so the blame is spread across the full spectrum.

But it's so much easier to blame the workforce, eh Mick?

 

[wacko]

If trickle-down economics has taught us one thing it is that trickle-down economics doesn’t work. Any profits from AI and robotics will end up in some billionaire’s bank account in the Cayman Islands with a few hundred-£k in Tory back-pockets for keeping the tax loopholes open.

My comment was more about AI and Robotics replacing the need for so many younger workers than about profits.
The main point though is that a slowly declining population is a very good thing. The best 'problem' to have.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

I’m not criticising pensioners at all, much of my business user demographic are in this category, and I’m only five or six years (can’t remember my retirement date) away myself! I’m really not trying to upset anyone here.

I’m just pointing out a harsh economic reality that the current age balance in countries like the UK and Japan is not sustainable. It is *way* out of kilter and needs addressing with (young) immigration. There are huge gaps as many of my and younger generations never had the financial stability or time to have a family.

These are the charts people should be looking at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Kingdom#Age_structure

True, but not complete. Given suitable health provision and modern tech, etc, many older/retired people can - and do - make a positive contribution, inc to our economy. Just as many could have built up a pension *if* decent work+pensions had been available when they were younger, etc. The problem is what we have failed to do in the past. Not what we could do in the future.

 

[PsB]

We know that the productivity gap between Britain and its competitors is nothing to do with employees “sitting on their arses” but a failure to invest in technology and instead relying on low paid unskilled workers and outdated processes.

To put a few numbers on this:
- assuming a base of 100 in 2007, UK productivity is on 105 in early 2024, eurozone average is 110. Both are left in the dust by the US (124) (Sources LSEG and national statistics via FT)
- since 1990, the UK has consistently invested less (total public and private investment as a % of GDP) than other G7 countries: the gap varies, but is around 4-5 points (17 versus 22%, eyeballing this chart https://www.ippr.org/articles/now-is-the-time-to-confront-uk-s-investment-phobia OECD source)
- foreign direct investment in the UK is 30% below recent peak years (2016) and the lowest since 2011-2012, so that doesn't help either.

 

[paulfromcamden]

I suspect the current workforce are spending too much time sitting on their arse and gawping at their mobile phones during working hours.

As you're retired and presumably no longer spend time in the workplace I'm curious what this suspicion is based on.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

There are loads of initiatives the UK could take to boost productivity, there is no question of that. However a major cause is people gawping on the net on non business topics.

Depends on the reality behind the word "gawping". if someone is learning some useful skills or finding a job, or helping *others* to learn, etc, then they may well be helping our economy and society.

Take an example from the context of this forum. If a retired old fart spends time putting useful info on a topic on the web, are they - and the people who may read and learn from it just 'gawping'? How does someone else know and be able to establish the "major cause" as per your claim?

 

[wacko]

Britain hasn't had a strong economy for over a century.
Joining the EU tipped the shaky economy into positive territory, and Brexit has tipped it into negative. 52% of Brexit voters said they are OK with that.

 

[S-Man]

To put a few numbers on this:
- assuming a base of 100 in 2007, UK productivity is on 105 in early 2024, eurozone average is 110. Both are left in the dust by the US (124) (Sources LSEG and national statistics via FT)
- since 1990, the UK has consistently invested less (total public and private investment as a % of GDP) than other G7 countries: the gap varies, but is around 4-5 points (17 versus 22%, eyeballing this chart https://www.ippr.org/articles/now-is-the-time-to-confront-uk-s-investment-phobia OECD source)
- foreign direct investment in the UK is 30% below recent peak years (2016) and the lowest since 2011-2012, so that doesn't help either.

Indeed, and this is what the program is about. Infrastructure investment in particular.

Of course, if you’re a smart as Mick, there’s no need to watch it. Because you know it all already.

 

[Mick P]

Depends on the reality behind the word "gawping". if someone is learning some useful skills or finding a job, or helping *others* to learn, etc, then they may well be helping our economy and society.

Take an example from the context of this forum. If a retired old fart spends time putting useful info on a topic on the web, are they - and the people who may read and learn from it just 'gawping'? How does someone else know and be able to establish the "major cause" as per your claim?

Firstly we all know the difference between business related and non business types of reading. That is, with the greatest of respect, just plain nit picking.

Anyway we have all made our points on this issue and I think it's becoming a shade repetitive.

 

[Seanm]

Firstly we all know the difference between business related and non business types of reading. That is, with the greatest of respect, just plain nit picking.

Anyway we have all made our points on this issue and I think it's becoming a shade repetitive.

Don't think it's been mentioned yet that you seem to be speaking out of bitterness and resentment as well as deep ignorance. I mean you can't be this ignorant about the concept of productivity, given all the business types of reading you do.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

Firstly we all know the difference between business related and non business types of reading. That is, with the greatest of respect, just plain nit picking.

Anyway we have all made our points on this issue and I think it's becoming a shade repetitive.

Once I can point out the doubful value "all" in "all" cases.

I didn't realise as I eagerly read 2nd hand SF paperbacks and mags from stalls in a local market when I was a kid that it would lead to a career in science and engineering. I was simply enjoying what I read, Yet at the time there was no thought of reading them being "business related". I doubt anyone else seeing me buy them would have thought that, either.