Previously happy LP12 owners who moved on.....
- Thread starter ex brickie
- Start date
Chris
pfm Member
Given the resonance frequencies and braking / accelerating movements involved, does anyone really believe that 3 dirty great springs are needed to alleviate the stresses thereby generated. I find it hard to believe that Ed Vilchur would have resorted to them if he had had 21st century tech at his disposal. My Linn is springless because I have zero expertise regarding setup and I am ok with that. Better sound ( for me) or even worse to a certain extent, are added value or demerit both counterbalanced by peace of mind
SONDEKNZ
Kiwi, now living in Hangzhou, CHINA
You may well be right, Mr Pig…
As a simple-thinking boy from the colonies, my fetish for fettle and balance may well have abducted my good sense and better judgement.
Notwithstanding that distinct possibility, I did earlier detect a whiff of the bait
in your previous question – but elected to proceed regardless, in order to draw out opposing views on the matter.You didn’t disappoint. Thank you for making the effort.
Personally, I doubt that the naked eye can discern any potentiality detrimental pistonic bounce variations on a sprung deck. Despite the fact that you might own the best pair of eye-chrometers
in the business, near enough is just not good enough when we are dealing in microscopic-sized degrees of accuracy. I hope we can agree on this.Despite the large variation in the (actual) weights of different tonearms and arm-boards that joyfully jump the old girl for a ride – many of which, have her singing like a bird – I suspect for the LP12, there is probably just one weight combination that is absolutely optimal.
Hence my consideration of the aforementioned counterweight concept.
Finally, I refer to your excellent point about the LINN springs and their very well understood “resonant frequencies” problems.
As you will know, AUDIOSILENTE silicone mushrooms have no such resonance problems, so the mushroomed LP12 - which completely dispenses with said springs - no longer needs to accommodate these very detrimental shortcomings.
As for my sub-chassis counterweight concept, with a spare sub-chassis up my sleeve, I see a simple prototype in my future.
13th Duke of Wymbourne
pfm Member
Joe
pfm Member
Thanks for jumping in there.....however the conversation was between SONDEKNZ and me and i was querying his comment about microscopic movements of the suspension springs ' making a world of difference '. Nothing to do with the old spiral scratch.
Mr Pig thought he could help by throwing a couple of insults into the discussion without bothering to engage in the actual topic.....but, hey ! this is the way with forums it seems.
John
Rack’em Up!
Linn and Rega have strived to minimize motor vibration with improvements in power supply and motors. Reducing those vibrations have made significant improvements in sound quality. I think Linn now has three different implementations that could be directly compared where those changes are the only variable.
Years ago when Linn introduced the Lingo power supply I was fortunate to hear direct comparison between the Valhalla power supply vs the Lingo using the same turntable. The Valhalla supply was mounted in an external box using the same power cord from the LP12 used for the Lingo.
The difference between the two was quite evident and convincing!
The interesting thing about the Premotec AC motors used by both Linn & Rega (although at different voltages) is that motor vibration can be minimised by adjusting the phase angle between the two pairs of motor wires.
How do I know ... because the "Number9" motor speed controller that I use, allows you to:
* hold the motor in your hand
* whilst adjusting the phase difference (using your computer) ... in real time.
So you can feel how the motor vibrations almost disappear, when you select the optimal phase angle (which is not the 90 deg delivered by a capacitor!).
Unfortunately, the designer of the "Number9" has 'left the building' - so it is no more.
But I believe the English 'Zeus' motor speed controller offers the same facility. 
Once you can minimise the vibrations of an AC motor by tuning the phase angle ... the (Linn) argument that "a DC motor has so much less vibration" - is rendered irrelevant.
per-Sony-fied
Me in another jacket
Indeed it does. Yet to try that feature out tho', well in all honesty yet to try the Zeus out, still in static build!The interesting thing about the Premotec AC motors used by both Linn & Rega (although at different voltages) is that motor vibration can be minimised by adjusting the phase angle between the two pairs of motor wires.
Unfortunately, the designer of the "Number9" has 'left the building' - so it is no more.
Once you can minimise the vibrations of an AC motor by tuning the phase angle ... the (Linn) argument that "a DC motor has so much less vibration" - is rendered irrelevant.
8 nm qualifies as sub microscopic in my book. The wavelength of visible light is of the order 300-700 nm so 8nm is invisible in a light microscope. You would need an EM.
The cheaper Minos can do this too.Unfortunately, the designer of the "Number9" has 'left the building' - so it is no more.
hornblower
pfm Member
No problems with my Linn dealer here (Audio T Cardiff), recently had a Karousel and AT OC9 fitted.
Mine still has the capacity to give me a 'wow' moment, l love playing vinyl records.
Mine still has the capacity to give me a 'wow' moment, l love playing vinyl records.
If this thread proves anything it that no one simply moves on from an LP12. They either stick with it or jump ship so they can share their views on said device for all eternity
It really is just turntable, it contains no inherent siren call to keep you upgrading or commenting.
It really is just turntable, it contains no inherent siren call to keep you upgrading or commenting.
13th Duke of Wymbourne
pfm Member
I think the point is the only qualitative measure of the springs is how well they bounce over a range of several milimetres (and then only if you bounce the system at the right place), we've no idea how they move when doing their day job and then how much of that sub-chassis movement ends up as an error signal in the cartridge. Nanometres of differential movement between cartridge and subchassis/platter could generate an audible error signal.
I was thinking the same earlier. Who cares about microscopic differences... just put a bloody record on and listen to some musicIf this thread proves anything it that no one simply moves on from an LP12. They either stick with it or jump ship so they can share their views on said device for all eternity
It really is just turntable, it contains no inherent siren call to keep you upgrading or commenting.
tpetsch
...The rhythm has Control
And in the better Regas the power supplies are specifically hand tuned and kept paired to their dedicated motor/deck at the factory to ensure the lowest noise & vibration possible, the deck and supply also share the same serial number. And even though one can swap out, say, one P10 power supply with another Rega does not recommend doing this as it's motor tune may be different.The interesting thing about the Premotec AC motors used by both Linn & Rega (although at different voltages) is that motor vibration can be minimised by adjusting the phase angle between the two pairs of motor wires.
How do I know ... because the "Number9" motor speed controller that I use, allows you to:
* hold the motor in your hand
* whilst adjusting the phase difference (using your computer) ... in real time.
So you can feel how the motor vibrations almost disappear, when you select the optimal phase angle (which is not the 90 deg delivered by a capacitor!).
Unfortunately, the designer of the "Number9" has 'left the building' - so it is no more.
Once you can minimise the vibrations of an AC motor by tuning the phase angle ... the (Linn) argument that "a DC motor has so much less vibration" - is rendered irrelevant.
This does sound a bit bizarre. What happens if you have a problem with the power supply? Is the TT no longer as good. ‘Hand tuned’, is it akin to a piano?
tpetsch
...The rhythm has Control
I don't understand? ...The same thing that happens as when any piece of audio gear has an issue, you put it back into it's box, it gets sent back to the manufacturer & it gets fixed. ...Good thing Rega has one of the best lifetime warranty's in the biz, not that I ever needed it.
John
Rack’em Up!
Sounds like the motor and power supply is paired together in the factory. So I imagine the motor would have to be pulled from the turntable to hand tune it by feel using the adjustments on the repaired Rega power supply. Might need to send the whole shebang to a Rega service center.