Previously happy LP12 owners who moved on.....

[Jazzer]

In my experience, the guys that think that correctly setting-up a sprung LP12 is tantamount to rocket science, are the same guys who have never ventured beneath the top-plate.

Yes, you have to take care that everything is just right and level; that the top-plate screws are straight and true; that the bounce is vertical and has reasonable decay; that the gap around the arm-board is even-stevens; and that the belt is neither too tight nor too loose; etc, etc.

But frankly, it is just not that hard.

To suggest that anyone who prefers the LP12 sound with the Silicone Mushrooms / Insoles - without the LINN springs - must have had a faulty sprung set-up is typical LINN brain-washing IMHO.

To be fair, i spent bloody hours trying to get a good and even bounce and failed repeatedly.
Later, I read of people selecting suitable springs from new sets and I started to believe that a fair degree of skill and experience plus a little luck is required, in some cases.

I still love my LP12 Ittok and how it sounds and have no desire to change it for any of the commonly suggested alternatives.
I do feel that as I am getting older and more clumsy that a less springy deck might be better though.
Hence, my interest in the mushrooms.

As an aside, I have heard many LP12s at shows and the one that was fettled at my ex dealer, neighbours house.
Not one of them has impressed me as much as mine but coming from the 80s brainwashing period that the press and dealers used to spout, I simply had to buy one and give it a try.
maye mine isn’t typical? Who knows.

I have heard a truly excellent sounding PTtoo and a Roksan Xerxes plus a number of great sounding Garrards.
Its just that having retired, I find myself not wanting to take on a potentially expensive project and wanting to maximise my enjoyment and use-ability of the deck and arm that I own and love.

 

[Mr Pig]

As an aside, I have heard many LP12s at shows and the one that was fettled at my ex dealer, neighbours house.
Not one of them has impressed me as much as mine but coming from the 80s brainwashing period that the press and dealers used to spout, I simply had to buy one and give it a try.
maye mine isn’t typical? Who knows.

Some decks just work. The balance of the components, the set up, who knows but they just boogie along. And it's not about resolution, tightness of bass or any of the usual hi-fi dribble. They just get out of the way and let you enjoy the music.

Once you know what that sounds like you can use it as a guide on any LP12.

 

[geofff]

I had an LP12/Lingo/Aro/Benz something-or-other about 40 years ago. Traded it in about 30 years ago for a Nottingham Mentor/SME 5/VdH Colibri at Definitive Audio. I can’t now remember how it improved the sound, except that I found out what bass was. Then I got an SME 20 with the SME 5 and everything was more sophisticated and refined, especially with the Kondo IoM cartridge. Then I got a used SME 30 and got yet more of the same (same arm & cartridge). The biggest changes have been in recent years when I heard — and had to have — a Grand Prix Audio Parabolica with Viv Labs RF7 arm and Kondo IoM. The improvements across the board were immense in every musical way you can imagine. At the time, I purposely didn’t listen to the GPA Mentor 2.0 turntable because it was way out of my price range, but with the recent introduction of the Mentor 3.0, Kevin at Definitive had a traded-in Mentor 2.0, so I went to hear it, fully expecting not to hear much difference between it and the Parabolica, but again the improvements were huge, so now I have a GPA Mentor 2.0/RF7/Ortofon Royal N. I’m not going to listen to the Mentor 3.0. This all goes to show that, to my ears (YMMV), there is plenty of life beyond the LP12, and the turntable (to me) makes a more fundamental improvement to a system than anything else.

 

[chris@panteg]

We had a record fair here in Banbury last Sunday and what is becoming a regular theme is the presence of the guys at cultured audio.
This time they had set up a Vertere MG1 and the big Sugden integrated amplifier going into Tannoy Stirlings I think they were.

I must say that the Vertere MG1 is a rather impressive turntable, certainly sounds very good.
The aesthetic is growing on me .

 

[Jazzer]

Some decks just work. The balance of the components, the set up, who knows but they just boogie along. And it's not about resolution, tightness of bass or any of the usual hi-fi dribble. They just get out of the way and let you enjoy the music.

Once you know what that sounds like you can use it as a guide on any LP12.

Maybe Colin, but what concerns me is that I can’t pinpoint what makes mine sound good to me when the other LP12s that I have listened to have not so I would not be able to repeat whatever it is.
I listened to my neighbours one very frequently.
Whenever he had a tune up for this or that cartridge or when he went from Lingo 2 to 3 but his turntable sound never engaged me like mine does.
He had a P3 24 before the LP12 and that sounded great so it wasn’t his system.
His LP12 was set up each time by a Linn professional.
I sometimes wonder if mine is atypical but that I just happen to prefer it to the typical LP12 sound
I honestly don’t know.
my neighbour loved the sound of mine though. He called it a beast and said that it sounded awesome and he is yes in the wool Linnie. lol

 

[John]

To suggest that anyone who prefers the LP12 sound with the Silicone Mushrooms / Insoles - without the LINN springs - must have had a faulty sprung set-up is typical LINN brain-washing IMHO.

The move to In-Soles removes much of the mystery in setting up an LP12. Most folks never have had nor know if their sprung suspension is correctly setup and are deluded into thinking it is. Including those who come across as experts in setting up the turntable.

One who believes that springs are some special secret sauce that makes an LP12 a LP12 is deluding themselves.

The springs are the Achilles heal and ditching them was the wisest move I’ve made with the deck. Bless John R for coming up with the In-Soles and Linn-Arts for supplying the custom made bits required for those with upgraded top plates!

 

[Mr Pig]

Maybe Colin, but what concerns me is that I can’t pinpoint what makes mine sound good to me when the other LP12s that I have listened to have not so I would not be able to repeat whatever it is.
I listened to my neighbours one very frequently.
Whenever he had a tune up for this or that cartridge or when he went from Lingo 2 to 3 but his turntable sound never engaged me like mine does.
He had a P3 24 before the LP12 and that sounded great so it wasn’t his system.
His LP12 was set up each time by a Linn professional.
I sometimes wonder if mine is atypical but that I just happen to prefer it to the typical LP12 sound
I honestly don’t know.
my neighbour loved the sound of mine though. He called it a beast and said that it sounded awesome and he is yes in the wool Linnie. lol

Does his deck sound hard and stilted while yours sounds organic and flowing? If so, it could be that the dealer has cranked all the bolts up too much. Ruins the sound. What's the spec of his deck?

 

[SONDEKNZ]

It could also be a PSU problem, a tonearm problem, a cartridge alignment problem, etc. etc... It all counts!

 

[Jazzer]

Does his deck sound hard and stilted while yours sounds organic and flowing? If so, it could be that the dealer has cranked all the bolts up too much. Ruins the sound. What's the spec of his deck?

Actually, mine sounded tighter and slightly leaner than his but with greater clarity in the midband and sharper transient attack.
It grabbed my attention in a way that his and the other LP12s I have heard, have not done.
That's the key difference, I think.
Also, I know that he listened to different aspects of the sound to me as he sometimes pointed out differences that I hadn’t noticed but he had very much the archetypal Linn philosophy. lol

We have both moved away and lost contact now but we had many years of listening sessions at home and at various shows.
His deck was about two years later than mine.
My serial number 73**** his was 92****, also in black If that makes any difference.
He had cirkus and an LV111, which I was envious of. Lol
He started with Lingo 2 and the factory upgraded him to Lingo 3 when one became available.
He had new belts and Mat.
He started with and Asaka, which he gave to me after he had a brand new Klyde fitted.
The Asaka still seems ok but I prefer AT cartridges now.

 

[BrendanD]

We had a record fair here in Banbury last Sunday and what is becoming a regular theme is the presence of the guys at cultured audio.
This time they had set up a Vertere MG1 and the big Sugden integrated amplifier going into Tannoy Stirlings I think they were.

I must say that the Vertere MG1 is a rather impressive turntable, certainly sounds very good.
The aesthetic is growing on me .

I have the 'mere' Vertere DG1. It replaced a Rega P6. The biggest upgrade I have ever made in 40 years of owning hifi. Just blew me away straight out of the box. Definitely fulfils its aim of being a great deck that doesn't need 15 pages of advice on how to fiddle with it to make it sound decent...........

 

[Tony L]

Definitely fulfils its aim of being a great deck that doesn't need 15 pages of advice on how to fiddle with it to make it sound decent...........

Many LP12s here are really the equivalent of monster trucks or choppers. They are almost entirely built from after-market/third-party parts and can no longer be viewed as an LP12 of any era in any real sense. They are an expression of the owner’s personality, not a defined hi-fi product. Nothing inherently wrong in this, folk can obviously customise their stuff however they like, and it can be a fun hobby in its own right, but take all the third-party parts and supports out of the equation and these threads would be a lot shorter!

 

[John]

I think the Keel came out in November 2006. This was the point where you saw audiophiles moving on from their LP12 as their top of the range LP12 was no longer. It took a few years for the Greenstreet clone to come out for 4 times less money. Those that hung on to their LP12 were rewarded with some nice innovative upgrades, including the Tiger Paw Khan top plate and Audio Innovations In-Soles. Those three significant improvements cost me half of what a Linn Keel would have.

Most of the loyal Linn owners who will have nothing but genuine Linn parts on their deck are not likely hanging out on PFM. There are other internet platforms that placate to them, many of them I’m sure are too busy to bother with such nonsense.

I understand the love you see for the white or black lined pre-Cirkus bearing. There is definitely a schism among Linn owners. It was cured for me when I swapped from white lined to the Cirkus bearing on my Greenstreet subchassis. My theory is that the Cirkus bearing needed a better subchassis than the stock steel subchassis it was originally paired with.

 

[amis]

As an LP12 owner since 1981, I've kept up with the times, from Kit Nirvana to Radikal2 and Karousel. I've had a Skale counterweight, Karmen top plate, chainring covers....
I've come to the conclusion that Linn LP12 original parts, properly used, promote better music. For LP12 to be good: The suspension rebound vertical travel with low damping at the end, important that the belt is positioned on the right side (smooth part on the motor pulley) flexible arm cable does not interfere with the suspension, felt with the short fiber side in contact with the vinyl, LP 12 placed horizontally with spirit level.

 

[John]

As an LP12 owner since 1981, I've kept up with the times, from Kit Nirvana to Radikal2 and Karousel. I've had a Skale counterweight, Karmen top plate, chainring covers....
I've come to the conclusion that Linn LP12 original parts, properly used, promote better music. For LP12 to be good: The suspension rebound vertical travel with low damping at the end, important that the belt is positioned on the right side (smooth part on the motor pulley) flexible arm cable does not interfere with the suspension, felt with the short fiber side in contact with the vinyl, LP 12 placed horizontally with spirit level.

What are chainring covers?

 

[Woodface]

I had an LP12/Lingo/Aro/Benz something-or-other about 40 years ago. Traded it in about 30 years ago for a Nottingham Mentor/SME 5/VdH Colibri at Definitive Audio. I can’t now remember how it improved the sound, except that I found out what bass was. Then I got an SME 20 with the SME 5 and everything was more sophisticated and refined, especially with the Kondo IoM cartridge. Then I got a used SME 30 and got yet more of the same (same arm & cartridge). The biggest changes have been in recent years when I heard — and had to have — a Grand Prix Audio Parabolica with Viv Labs RF7 arm and Kondo IoM. The improvements across the board were immense in every musical way you can imagine. At the time, I purposely didn’t listen to the GPA Mentor 2.0 turntable because it was way out of my price range, but with the recent introduction of the Mentor 3.0, Kevin at Definitive had a traded-in Mentor 2.0, so I went to hear it, fully expecting not to hear much difference between it and the Parabolica, but again the improvements were huge, so now I have a GPA Mentor 2.0/RF7/Ortofon Royal N. I’m not going to listen to the Mentor 3.0. This all goes to show that, to my ears (YMMV), there is plenty of life beyond the LP12, and the turntable (to me) makes a more fundamental improvement to a system than anything else.

Who knew a £30k TT could sound good

 

[amis]

What are chainring covers?

The tray cover is the most versatile accessory, and the easiest to interchange.
Other than the felt of the LP12, I tested cork, leather, rubber and composite (mixtures of several materials). Each sounded different according to its constitution, which influences the listening balance, advantages and disadvantages. I kept my first Linn platter cover in a cupboard, it was made of felt 3 times thicker, at the time it was fine but sounded comparatively less clear and fast than the new Linns.

 

[chris@panteg]

Many LP12s here are really the equivalent of monster trucks or choppers. They are almost entirely built from after-market/third-party parts and can no longer be viewed as an LP12 of any era in any real sense. They are an expression of the owner’s personality, not a defined hi-fi product. Nothing inherently wrong in this, folk can obviously customise their stuff however they like, and it can be a fun hobby in its own right, but take all the third-party parts and supports out of the equation and these threads would be a lot shorter!

It was very much the same with the Technics SL1200 MK2 and the like.

 

[Tony L]

It was very much the same with the Technics SL1200 MK2 and the like.

Absolutely, and even more so with kit where official parts no longer exist e.g. Lencos, Garrards, TD-124s etc. I have over the years become increasingly skeptical of what I’d describe as ‘boutique upgrades’, i.e. self-appointed ”experts” think they know how to improve a tried and tested classic product etc as I’ve been burned a few times and ended up reversing a lot of expensive stuff out.

My current approach is to try and fully understand what I like, exactly why I like it, and then just buy or assemble the very best possible example of it I can. I‘d describe the work I do rebuilding turntables, speakers, amps etc as restoration only. I’m not trying to tweak or improve anything, and I certainly don’t think I understand the item better than the original designer. That said I’m not knocking those that do enjoy the mod/tweak scene, I just figured out over the decades that this path almost always loses the very thing I liked about the product in the first place.

I always liked the LP12 because it sounded exactly like an LP12. If I wanted something that didn’t I bought something that wasn’t. I apply exactly the same logic to my Tannoys, Leaks, TD-124 etc. They are unashamedly what they are. The LP12 is obviously a moving target as it has evolved so much, but that is just a matter of figuring out what your favourite era is. I’m pretty sure the mid to late-1980s is mine, and that’s what I’d buy/assemble if I ever wanted another.

 

[Fergus]

I had never owned an LP12 so had no reason to read this thread and I’m glad I hadn’t had one as I didn’t get sucked into the upgrade hype. However just this past weekend I bought my first LP12 from another Scottish member of this forum, thanks, and I think it’s very good, as good in many ways as some of the other turntables I have enjoyed over the past 50 years but with its own strengths. The only upgrades I would contemplate would be a new stylus, or cartridge and maybe the “mushroom” suspension modification as my arthritic hands get worse.

I have enjoyed Steely Dan and Donald Fagen on all of them!

 

[Mr Pig]

I had never owned an LP12 so had no reason to read this thread and I’m glad I hadn’t had one as I didn’t get sucked into the upgrade hype. However just this past weekend I bought my first LP12 from another Scottish member of this forum, thanks, and I think it’s very good, as good in many ways as some of the other turntables I have enjoyed over the past 50 years but with its own strengths. The only upgrades I would contemplate would be a new stylus, or cartridge and maybe the “mushroom” suspension modification as my arthritic hands get worse.

I have enjoyed Steely Dan and Donald Fagen on all of them!

The Akito will take a better cartridge but I wouldn't go daft. It's a well balanced deck and a significant change is going to cost proper money. An ML stylus sounds like a good idea but you've already got a Vital so I doubt you'd notice much change.