Previously happy LP12 owners who moved on.....

[lambo]

i started with a dual ca505 then went to an lp12. after that i had an audionote TT2 which i sold to go digital. i recently purchased an lp12 with a lingo 3 late ittok LVii and a modest AT cartridge which has been well set up by my local dealer and I am very happy to have come full circle. i am certain other decks could sound better but am now happy to spend any spare cash on records.

Nice post
interestingly I I had to sell my almost top spec lp12 which I had been upgrading for 35 years to raise funds during covid
when I started back on the trail got a nice rega 3 then found a Clearaudio concept mc with upgraded power supply both bought on pink fish
however i had popped into my dealers and they had a very nice one owner lp12 with lingo 1 Ekos 2 and dyna xx2 mk2
decided to have a demo and see if it’s worth going back to an lp12
see what transpires
Tony

 

[Tumeni Notes]

Audiosilente Mushrooms - there's nothing on their website specifically for Linn; are the folks who have fitted these using one of the Thorens products that they do?

 

[Mr Pig]

...decided to have a demo and see if it’s worth going back to an lp12
see what transpires.

The problem is, what is an LP12? You're taking about a product that has changed and developed over fifty years. It happens to look similar on the outside and have the same name but a current LP12 bears little similarity to an early one beyond superficial appearance.

So which LP12 do you like or dislike? Would I want my main turntable to be an early LP12? Not really. Would I want it to be a current hi-spec LP12? Also no. So do I like or dislike the LP12?

 

[lambo]

The problem is, what is an LP12? You're taking about a product that has changed and developed over fifty years. It happens to look similar on the outside and have the same name but a current LP12 bears little similarity to an early one beyond superficial appearance.

So which LP12 do you like or dislike? Would I want my main turntable to be an early LP12? Not really. Would I want it to be a current hi-spec LP12? Also no. So do I like or dislike the LP12?

Hi Colin
For me this was a sweet spot except mine had a keel which I could get used later on if I wanted so I’m going in with an open mind is it better than what I have or is it nostalgia ?
I began chasing better and upgraded to Radikal urika ekos se/1 Krystal
but I now know I was chasing something that really I already had
My clearaudio concept is sounding pretty amazing it’s on mana and clamped so will be interesting to hear what the lp12 sounds like now
ATB
Tony

 

[paulbysea]

The problem is, what is an LP12? You're taking about a product that has changed and developed over fifty years. It happens to look similar on the outside and have the same name but a current LP12 bears little similarity to an early one beyond superficial appearance.

So which LP12 do you like or dislike? Would I want my main turntable to be an early LP12? Not really. Would I want it to be a current hi-spec LP12? Also no. So do I like or dislike the LP12?

I think you raise a very important point. The LP12 is a deck of many versions allowing you to mix and match to get a deck you enjoy your music through. I have a late 70s plinth top plate and lid, mid-80s Ittok with a Kore, Karousell and Lingo 4. It sounds great to me in my system. I do often listen to a top-of-the-range LP12 and whilst objectively it is better I never come home and think something is missing when I listen to an LP. The LP12 is not perfect but for me, no TT is, they all offer differing compromises that will match people's individual wants and or systems. Looking back over the years my deck has given me over 40 years of enjoyment. If today I was looking to get a deck at around the mid-level LP12 price, would I get one or a Rega Naia or one of the other good decks out there? I don't know, what I do know is that I have arrived at my deck at around Selekt level at a bargain price by updating and upgrading now and again over the years and that for me is one of the many good things about long-term LP12 ownership.

 

[SONDEKNZ]

Audiosilente Mushrooms - there's nothing on their website specifically for Linn; are the folks who have fitted these been using one of the Thorens products that they do?

Yep. The clear silicone jobbies made for Thorens - but fit perfectly to the LP12 sub-chassis.

 

[chris@panteg]

I can't help thinking that with those mushrooms fitted, it's not really an LP12 anymore but something quite different.

And perhaps if you think it sounds better with them in place is partly the reason why many moved away from the Linn to other decks .

 

[Mr Pig]

I can't help thinking that with those mushrooms fitted, it's not really an LP12 anymore but something quite different.

I agree. I fifty years Linn have changed just about every part of the LP12. Apart from grinding the springs flat, they have never changed the springs and grommets. My bet is that removing the springs results in a fundamental shift in what the deck sounds like and makes it not an LP12. There are lots of turntables which are not the LP12 and I don't see the point in making the LP12 not an LP12, If you don't like it I think you'd be better just buying something else.

 

[Toaster]

I can't help thinking that with those mushrooms fitted, it's not really an LP12 anymore but something quite different.

And perhaps if you think it sounds better with them in place is partly the reason why many moved away from the Linn to other decks .

The one Linn (mid-80s Valhalla/ Ittok/ Goldring G1022),/ and the handful of Thorens TD160s and '150s I've fitted mushrooms to still sounded like themselves, rather than something significantly different. Bass seemed a bit tighter, imaging seemed a bit less 'airy'/ diffuse and a bit more solid. All the owners were happy, particularly my friend with the Linn, as the only place he could put it was on a tallish cabinet, and on his wooden floor the suspension was twitchy to the point of being unusable. In fairness none of the systems were 'high end', but they were all pretty decent.

I think mushrooms are just another useful option, and simply add to the modular versatility of the LP12, which along with the sound quality is an excellent reason to own one. Once I've built one of mine up to give to my step-brother, I have another interesting set of parts to build a deck to try out here, which I'm looking forward to!

 

[SONDEKNZ]

I can't help thinking that with those mushrooms fitted, it's not really an LP12 anymore but something quite different.

And perhaps if you think it sounds better with them in place is partly the reason why many moved away from the Linn to other decks .

Quite right!

A LINN Sondek LP12 still sounds like a LINN Sondek LP12 with…

A VALHALLA Zeus power supply.
A THAKKER Silicone Blue belt.
A TIGER PAW Tranquillity anti-gravity bearing support.
A TANGERINE AUDIO Stiletto metal top-plate and plinth.
A MOBER sub-chassis.
A STACK AUDIO armboard.
A NAIM ARO Tonearm.

But the moment you suspend the deck using silicone mushrooms instead of bouncy springs, there’s just NO WAY this turntable could possibly sound like an LP12!

...My bet is that removing the springs results in a fundamental shift in what the deck sounds like and makes it not an LP12.

And amazingly, you DON'T even need to listen to an LP12 fitted with silicone mushrooms to instinctively know this in advance!

…You guys are hilarious.

 

[andyr]

Quite right!

A LINN Sondek LP12 still sounds like a LINN Sondek LP12 with…

A VALHALLA Zeus power supply.
A THAKKER Silicone Blue belt.
A TIGER PAW Tranquillity anti-gravity bearing support.
A TANGERINE AUDIO Stiletto metal top-plate and plinth.
A MOBER sub-chassis.
A STACK AUDIO armboard.
A NAIM ARO Tonearm.

BTW - you forgot the Karousel (in terms of the deck still sounding like an LP12)!

As @Mr Pig said earlier ... "In fifty years Linn have changed just about every part of the LP12".

And still it sounds like an LP12 - only better than an original one.

 

[SONDEKNZ]

BTW - you forgot the Karousel (in terms of the deck still sounding like an LP12)!

As @Mr Pig said earlier ... "In fifty years Linn have changed just about every part of the LP12".

And still it sounds like an LP12 - only better than an original one.

Quite right, Andy.

Or a MOBER bearing for that matter!

 

[tiggers]

This is the thread that keeps on giving. So you can change just about every component of an LP12 and that's OK until you get to the suspension when it becomes sacrilege. FFS, so glad I'm away from this bollocks now... a great deck let down by nonsense like this. If someone wants to change their LP12 in a way of their choosing then that is up to them and doesn't need approval of the LP12 police!!!

 

[Mr Pig]

Quite right!

A LINN Sondek LP12 still sounds like a LINN Sondek LP12 with…

A VALHALLA Zeus power supply.
A THAKKER Silicone Blue belt.
A TIGER PAW Tranquillity anti-gravity bearing support.
A TANGERINE AUDIO Stiletto metal top-plate and plinth.
A MOBER sub-chassis.
A STACK AUDIO armboard.
A NAIM ARO Tonearm.

It's not a question of whether or not you like the results, but whether the product takes away from the fundamentals of what the LP12 is. I think the Aro is a good tonearm, all uni-pivots sound nice, but I don't want one. I gave away the blue belt too but these products don't alter the way the LP12 works.

Linn themselves have developed versions of all of the above products but they have not removed, or even altered, the suspension. Yes, removing the springs might produce tighter bass, better imaging or whatever other audio niceties but so what? The RP10 I owned also bettered the LP12 in many Hi-Fi respects but ultimately I found it unsatisfying and did not like it. It's very easy to get excited about immediately noticeable improvements but long term satisfaction is harder to gauge.

Most of the people I've seen love their RP10s but I think they sound wrong. It's all just personal preference and if you're happy with the way your record player sounds then that's great but I think it's silly to suggest that an LP12 without the suspension is still essentially an LP12.

However, it would not surprise me if Linn brought out their own version of this mod in the future. Not because I think it's right necessarily, but because I'm not convinced that the people in charge at Linn still understand what the LP12 is. Linn seem to be primarily a money generating machine these days and I doubt the bosses have the same sensitivities as their predecessors. In fact I think you could probably argue that Linn's direction hasn't been the same for the last twenty years.

 

[SONDEKNZ]

I started with a REGA P3 / RB300 / AUDIO-TECHNICA AT-32EII.

I assure you, the suspended springless LP12 sounds NOTHING like the non-suspended REGA deck - and just like an LP12.

What still separates us is…

I’ve owned and heard both!

 

[andyr]

Interesting post Mr P.

It's not a question of whether or not you like the results, but whether the product takes away from the fundamentals of what the LP12 is. I think the Aro is a good tonearm, all uni-pivots sound nice, but I don't want one. I gave away the blue belt too but these products don't alter the way the LP12 works.

Agreed. I have no interest in an Aro, either.

The Linn dealer who sold me my LP12 in about 1979 put a DV505 arm on it (which he had modified) - as he thought that it was the best arm available at the time.

So I used that for about 20 years ... but then hankered for VTA-on-the-fly ... so bought a Graham 2.2. Then I fell in love with a 12" 'GoldenAge Audio Univector' - so bought that. (This forced me to design my own version of an LP12 - my 'SkeletaLinn' - which could take a 12" arm ... and sell my LP12.)

Two relevant points about the above story:
1. when someone (who owned an LP12) came round for a listen to the SkeletaLinn ... he said "amazing - it really does sound like an LP12"!
and
2. I'd put the Univector up against an Aro any day; unfortunately, its designer "left the building" several years ago - so these wonderful arms are no more.

Most of the people I've seen love their RP10s but I think they sound wrong. It's all just personal preference and if you're happy with the way your record player sounds then that's great but I think it's silly to suggest that an LP12 without the suspension is still essentially an LP12.

Then again, I have read comments by those who I would call "Linnie fundamentalists" ... who say the Cirkus bearing was the first "upgrade" that started the downhill slide of the ol' fruitbox to "just another TT".

In fact I think you could probably argue that Linn's direction hasn't been the same for the last twenty years.

You mean since Ivor handed over the reins?

 

[SONDEKNZ]

I think the elephant in the room here is suspended versus non-suspended.

Replacing the LINN springs with silicone mushrooms does NOT remove the suspension.

The entire sub-chassis is still suspended from the top-plate.

But the mushroom suspension provides greater lateral stability to the sub-chassis - effectively resisting the force to twist in relation to the top-plate - and critical dampening to the sub-chassis itself.

Our SUSPENDED springless LP12 spins unaffected, with our 5-year-old haring around the listening room and our robot vacuum cleaner nudging the HIFI rack - without impact on playback.

Don’t be thinking the springless LP12 is a non-suspended REGA… it ain’t!

 

[docstocker]

I’ve only ever had five decks. Four if you don’t include the deck in my Dansette.
I still have the four of them.
It’s ’FUN’ to fiddle about with them. To listen to the differences. Sometimes it’s fun just to get any music at all out of them!
Next project will be to get my early70s TD 150 up and running again. The Linn Basil+ arm needs some attention. I might swap the SA750D and 103 on to it and see how it sounds.
This is a hobby. I listen to music and play around with the system for fun!
It’s not a religion.
Do what you like!

 

[Mr Pig]

I think the elephant in the room here is suspended versus non-suspended.

Not really. It doesn't matter what you call it, you don't have LP12 suspension.

The Linn Axis does not use LP12 suspension. It has three rubber diaphragms in turrets which the top-plate sits on, which is not entirely unlike the mushrooms. So Linn have been here before. They have employed a suspension system based on compliant rubber diaphragms and there are two things worth noting.

The Axis, while sounding good in its own way, does not sound like an LP12. And Linn do not produce a turntable using this system any more.

 

[Nic Robinson]

Some quasi-religious arguments here. Especially the bit about Linn probably doing the springs one day but it still won't be legit because they don't understand the LP12 anymore. Akin to a Christian telling me I never can have truly been one as I am no-longer a believer (the good old No True Scotsman fallacy).

I'm just delighted to be both atheist and Garrard/Technics owner.