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Previously happy LP12 owners who moved on.....

John said:
That depends on whether or not you agree that the LK1 and 280 was better than a 32.5, Hi-cap, 135’s. Linn was using the Linn electronics to develop their LP12.
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The Kairn Klout was ok just not as good as the Naim Amps you’ve mentioned. Anyway enjoy im pleased I left the linn Naim thing 20 plus years ago.
 
Tony L said:
FWIS I actually felt sorry for a lot of dealers who had previously been able to offer kit they liked and believed in from both companies effectively having to pick a side in a bitter divorce. It was a time I lost a lot of respect for the audio market as to my mind, whether the dealer went with Linn, or with Naim, they were obviously diminished and compromised. A real eye-opener for me and probably the point I lost interest in the new audio marketplace.
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But did this ever really happen? Moorgate Acoustics carries Linn, Naim & Rega. Have done for as long as I’ve been aware of.

My dealer of choice carried Rega, Linn & Naim for many years. They dropped Rega & Linn, kept naim. This thing happens, it’s just part of business.

Plenty of dealers stock lots of competing brands.

The vinyl revival has also caught a few out. Dealers stock what they can sell.
 
There are (many many) other relevant threads here and elsewhere.

FWIW, I had a gradually-updated LP12 before I ‘moved on’. It had Kore, Ekos, Krystal, Lingo 4 and no baseboard. We eventually added an after-market base from SRM too - imho it is a little better than a naked bottom, and definitely better than an old Tramp if using a wall shelf, but it didn’t end forever the hunt for improvements.

A couple of years ago, we compared that LP12 to nearly £20K of Vertere front end and a marginally more expensive Brinkmann Bardo option. Both were definitely better than that LP12 in some areas but not all - both were better for bass grip and stereo image, but usually not more involving with female voices, for example.

In any event, VFM of (a) a TT that you might get for little over £4K on eBay that was different but not sharply worse versus (b) two outstanding decks with those price tags was compelling.

Then I got offered a Stiletto/ Skorpion with Keel, Radikal, Ekos, Kleos for what I think was a bargain price. At everything that the old LP12 does nearly as well (or better) than Vertere or Brinkmann, the Stiletto was better again. On every aspect on which one or both of those two was well ahead of my old LP12, the Stiletto was at least broadly comparable with the two modern-looking decks.

If I ever consider moving on from the Stiletto, I would not be surprised to find myself with Vertere or Brinkmann (both really are that good). However, the amount I’d have to spend to beat the Stiletto dramatically (to my old ears) is so far into five figures (in £) that I really can’t see it happening.

I know that I can hear the improvement between LP12 variants costing c. £2K, c.£5K and c.£10K. I am also confident that I could get something from Vertere, Brinkmann and perhaps WT that I liked about as much as the Stiletto or fractionally better for a big extra outlay, but not for less than £10K for the whole front end.

And all this without considering the super-dense plinth or even a KRad or SC versus Uruk’s…

In any event, after all that waffle, we pick using our ears and are grateful for the opportunity to do so. Dealers like Cymbiosis rightly get a lot of praise for letting people do this with such a range of options, and for recognising that some who are not deaf or daft may prefer (say) Keel/ L4 to Kore/ Radikal while others pick the opposite way.
 
Woodface said:
But did this ever really happen? Moorgate Acoustics carries Linn, Naim & Rega. Have done for as long as I’ve been aware of.

My dealer of choice carried Rega, Linn & Naim for many years. They dropped Rega & Linn, kept naim. This thing happens, it’s just part of business.

Plenty of dealers stock lots of competing brands.

The vinyl revival has also caught a few out. Dealers stock what they can sell.
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Many dealers dropped Linn not out of choice but because they were forced to stock everything Linn made, this was so out of reach of many dealers that they had no other option.
 
John said:
The LK1 and 280 outperformed the 32.5, Hi-Cap, 135’s which was the best Naim offered at the time. We lived with both for a few months and performed the A/B mostly versus the 250. We sold them to customers who had been using Naim electronics paired with Isobariks and Saras. Many of the Linn/Naim dealers in the US ended up dropping Naim as the product no longer made sense for them to sell. The North American importer who originally brought Linn and Naim into the market made the decision to drop Naim and helped them setup their own distribution. They could in not good faith sell a product that wasn’t as good as the Linn electronics. I was deeply involved in the business during the whole period.
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That's not how it went down at our shop, we sold all, Linn, Naim & Rega from the early 80's thru 2015. It was easy to dem for the customer 32.5/HC/250 over LK1/280, and we didn't sell many of the latter, but like mentioned Linn did make a big push with the stuff -attempting to distance themselves from that early Linn/Naim symbiotic relationship, 3/6 Pack W/LP12/Isobarik- but some walked into the shop and just had to have it so of course we obliged. The Naim stuff continued to fly out the doors in those early days and still holds up today IMO if maintained properly, source first! It wasn't until Linn releases Kairn/Klout Keltik 3-4Pack system, Karik/Numerik- that we really started selling a bunch, but Naim still held it's own. The when Analog all but disappeared and Digital/AV/Multiroom crept in Linn had the upper hand with Knekt but it all sounded like crap anyway IMO, 5103? Yikes!, dark days for the true audio lover -but in some ways profitable. Then with the Klimax stuff, again, we sold it but as far as I was concerned it seemed all designed for a digital future and I never got on with it. ...Now here we are again, in some ways gone full circle back to the early 80's vinyl heyday, a bunch of us that remained only interested in vinyl never really went anywhere, and for me that Naim gear still does what I want it to do and keeps up better than I could have ever imagined with newer analog front ends as long as those basic analog build/playback fundamentals are held.
 
per-Sony-fied said:
Many dealers dropped Linn not out of choice but because they were forced to stock everything Linn made, this was so out of reach of many dealers that they had no other option.
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Yes. I’ve heard similar but that’s not the same as thing as was being originally talked about. It was also quite a short term thing & may have been a way of slimming down their dealer list.
 
per-Sony-fied said:
Many dealers dropped Linn not out of choice but because they were forced to stock everything Linn made, this was so out of reach of many dealers that they had no other option.
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I know for a fact this is true. I spoke to a very well respected dealer about this issue a few times. Linn told him he had to stock all of Linn's products and sell a quota of everything. He basically told them to piss off! He wasn't going to talk customers into buying products he didn't think were very good so he dropped Linn. As he was a very prominent dealer they came back and let him stock and sell what he wanted. A few years later they tried the same thing on him again!

He was lucky, he had enough clout to stand up to them but I knew of dealers who only stocked a limited range of brands with Linn being by far the biggest one. Those guys had no chance. I can think of a couple who closed.
 
That is what I’d heard too. The only way dealers could do it and win was to stop stocking any competition that was better!
 
The LK1 and LK2 was introduced at CES in 1986 and made available for sale in the fall. I think it would have been 1987 when dealers began dropping Naim audio including the North American distributor who was their importer for 10 years. We were a fairly new Linn dealer with no large Naim user base. It was an easy decision as it made no sense selling a product that was outperformed in direct comparisons which is how we operated the shop.

I found this interview with JV who discusses losing their NA importer.


I was out of the business by 1988 so was not closely tied what was going on after that. I was very pleased running my LP12/Nait/Quad ESL-57’s returning to school for a second degree in computer science. It was a great time for acquiring used records for cheap as folks were dumping their record collections at the time.
 
John said:
It was an easy decision as it made no sense selling a product that was outperformed in direct comparisons which is how we operated the shop.
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My sister lives in the US and I remember her talking about buying a new hi-fi years ago. She ended up buying Naim with Harbeth speakers. She never mentioned Linn.
 
So what we have here is one person, a one time Linn dealer, saying how great Linn's early electronics were and just about everyone else saying how bad they were.... hmmmm! You only have to look at how Naim amps hold their value compared to Linn's to see how the world views each of them... or is the entire secondhand market wrong too?
 
Mr Pig said:
I know for a fact this is true. I spoke to a very well respected dealer about this issue a few times. Linn told him he had to stock all of Linn's products and sell a quota of everything.
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indeed it is. Our "local" Bada dealer stores always stocked Linn. They had many a discussion with them but they would not budge. Now all they do is LP12 setups/maintenance. They purely do this for their previous customers. I'm none to sure though how they get hold of the parts.
 
tiggers said:
So what we have here is one person, a one time Linn dealer, saying how great Linn's early electronics were and just about everyone else saying how bad they were.... hmmmm!
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A Linn dealer that apparently used a Nait and ESLs at home too! ;-)
 
John said:
I guess we weren’t all rich like you Tony;-)
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I wasn’t rich at all, and FWIW I’d unquestionably take a Nait and ESLs over a full Linn active Keltik system. Just way better IMHO. For whatever reason you ended up with the better system.
 
per-Sony-fied said:
indeed it is. Our "local" Bada dealer stores always stocked Linn. They had many a discussion with them but they would not budge. Now all they do is LP12 setups/maintenance. They purely do this for their previous customers. I'm none to sure though how they get hold of the parts.
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You can buy them, you'll just not get them at trade. You'll have to buy them from a Linn dealer the same as any other punter. I buy bits from Cymbiosis, eBay etc.
 
ex brickie said:
First I'm not interested in the many on here who make a sport of slagging off the LP12 .... I'm interested to hear from those who have enjoyed an LP12 but found something else equally or more satisfying.

I am an LP12 owner. I've owned Linn pre and power amps but didn't take to them (I now have Rega amplification). I've also owned Saras and Isobariks - both of which I improved on. I'm a fan of Linn Tukan and later Linn Kans (still own a pair of each but they aren't in my main system). I therefore like to think I'm pretty objective in my views of Linn equipment (even though my opinions on how they sound are of course subjective).

However I don't like the company or their dealers. Another thread has highlighted what we already know - Linn don't keep spares for as long as other decent manufacturers and therefore have earlier built-in obsolescence. The other is their dealers - many of whom are awful. Rude, up their own a****s, condescending and unhelpful.

So, while I like the sound of my LP12, I'll always have a worry about the next big bill (service, power supply failing out of warranty, some other problem). I'm now open to finding a replacement turntable that has an accurate sound (yes, I know some of you say the LP12 sound isn't accurate) , reliability, less built in obsolescence (ie a brand with longer lasting spares), a company with exemplary customer service and something needing less/no servicing.

My other (potentially unreasonable) need is not to have a huge outlay for a replacement (ie the net outlay from selling or trading in my LP12). I will buy secondhand. It may be that this isn't possible - in which case I just keep and enjoy the LP12 and wait for the next bill.

The spec of my LP12 is Khan, Karousel, Greenstreet, Lingo 4 and Javelin arm. Also a Dynavector cartridge but I might just transfer that (and indeed the arm if possible) to a new deck. I haven't looked into what that spec of deck is worth secondhand but I'm sure many on here will have a good idea.

What have previous LP12 lovers moved on to, why and how does the SQ compare? I won't buy without finding one and having a demo.

No point making silly sug gestions that (for example) a Rega RP8 or Technics SL1200 will be an improvement because they patently aren't better.

If there's another thread that has some of the info, please point me to it (searches don't seem to work that well on here). I'd welcome up to date views from those who have moved on.....
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Hi there,

I understand your concerns about Linn's service and costs. As a former LP12 owner, I switched to a VPI Prime Scout and found it more reliable and engaging, with excellent customer support. For minimal maintenance, the Clearaudio Concept is great.

Your LP12 with upgrades should have decent resale value, helping offset the cost of a new turntable. Demo a few options to find the best fit. Good luck!
 
Nic Robinson said:
My Damascene moment came when I took the arm and cart out of my LP12 and plonked them in the corner of a £40 Lenco 78 suspended in a bit of ply using a cut up film canister as a shim. It sounded better. And yes the LP12 was set up by a guru.

Had a lot of fun with idlers ever since.
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What were the arm and cartridge?
 
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