Power Cables. Are they overhyped?

[adamdea]

The designer of Chord electronics agrees with LFD. Remember this?http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=157754

And John Westlake too I believe.

At most Watts says that certain RF conditions can generate problems which somehow vary with mains cables (note no indication that this can produce predictable or consistent results for different mains cables) but that this goes away with a decent rf filter. Nb he implies that this is not an issue with his recent products.
This takes us back to the point -I seem to remember Jim
wrote an article about it- that plaiting mains cables is not a great way of making an RF filter
Edit: here it is
http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/cables/mains/StringTheory.html

 

[rn82497]

Feeding a belief system that keeps people buying "high end" audio products, perhaps?

Indeed. It also is no proof that it actually happens. So it might or might not happen, and his misguided explanation doesn't really make a difference this way or that.

So by saying his amplifier is power cable sensitive - he increases sales in a niche market?

Come on. Bit of a desperate argument from you Julf?

I expect better ...

 

[mattgbell]

So by saying his amplifier is power cable sensitive - he increases sales in a niche market?

Come on. Bit of a desperate argument from you Julf?

I expect better ...

This kind of thing is widespread throughout the industry. Manufacturers typically say their products must be used with the highest quality ancillary equipment. For instance this from ATC: ‘The SCM50 ASL (active) and SCM50 SL (passive) are designed to perform at their best in the recording studio or at home with the finest quality hi-fi equipment.’

The implication is: ‘our speakers are the very finest equipment too!’ Just imagine what it would sound like if ATC’s marketing said: ‘Frankly our speakers can be used with any competently designed electronics. TBH you won’t notice the difference!’

 

[Julf]

Come on. Bit of a desperate argument from you Julf?

No, I just offered one possible explanation, thus disproving your argument (which was weak to start with - lack of motivation doesn't prove that the action doesn't happen).

 

[adamdea]

So by saying his amplifier is power cable sensitive - he increases sales in a niche market?

Come on. Bit of a desperate argument from you Julf?

I expect better ...

To see the alternative point of view then it is necessary to step outside pretty much everything you think you know about hi fi. It is very easy if you "learn" about electronics from hifi ads and magazine articles (leaving aside a very few (and getting fewer) notable exceptions like Jim's columns) to build up a set of assumptions based on what implicitly must be the case: they couldn't possibly keep writing articles comparing things which sound the same; they couldn't employ reviewers who understanding exactly jack shit; they couldn't suggest to a man that you need a fancy mains cable, fancy signal cable, fancy rubber cone, etc etc to make your electronics work properly if this were not the case.

Sadly, if you have even the most basic understanding of electronics and an inquiring mind, it is patently obvious that at least some of what is written, reviewed and "generally known" in the industry (eg passing electricity through silver has an effect fundamentally different from passing it through copper) is simply nonsense. Once you grasp that, and apply some degree of independent thinking then the task becomes to work out what actually isn't nonsense. Frankly it's quite a tricky task.

Even if you have no technical interest at all, the best way to approach the mains cable question IMHO is to forget about audio altogether (other than to note that the function of all of the devices prior to a speaker in the chain is to reproduce a simple relationship of voltage against time) and to consider whether any other form of electronics requires a special mains cable (beyond being screened and fit for heavy duty use) in order to perform properly, and whether, when trying to wring the best performance out of (eg) a scanning machine the radiologist will try out different sorts of mains cable.

Then step 2 is to consider the sorts of effect that a mains cable conceivably could have, and whether they could conceivably map to a consistent and reliable set of properties (when used in conjunction with hifi equipment) which could equate to anything written about them in a magazine review. What does this now tell us about the evidential status of the contents of these articles?

I wouldn't bother worrying about complex commercial motives. You don't really need to consider motives to know how much weight to give to accounts by medieval travellers of the four headed giants they encountered on their voyages.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Presumably, at some point in the past, some charlatan set to thinking about how to increase his income from hifi sales, and hit upon the idea of fancy supports and fancy cables. And, many bandwaggons later, we find ourselves where we are.

It is inconceivable that somebody happened to notice a change in sound when they moved to a different surface, or used a different connecting cable, and did a bit of empirical experimentation and now we find ourselves where we are.

Isn't it?

Thing is, if you accept the second scenario as realistic, then it kinda follows that the noticing of the effect preceded the development and marketing of the product. That the effect is not amenable to easy measurement doesn't mean the effect is not perceived, just that we don't yet have a simple explanation for it.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

The argument about sensitive medical equipment not using fancy mains cables is a bit spurious. Do you really think a CAT scanner plugs into a 3-pin mains socket? And mobile equipment, ultrasound scanners perhaps, just need to be good enough for the job at hand. I doubt it has occurred to anybody to blind test mains cables on ultrasound scanners and see if diagnostic rates improve.

So it is a straw man argument. It's also a bit of an appeal to authority - clever, educated people don't use this shit so why should you?

 

[Yomanze]

Given that the LFD manufactures amplifiers - NOT cables - what could the Founder / Chief Designer possibly have to gain by making this observation?

He immediately opens his company up to 43 pages (and counting) of abuse from self-proclaimed experts / skeptics.

His interpretation as to 'why' this an effect occurs - may be incorrect - but that is a different matter to whether it occurs.

@AKG - Obviously our Osiris amplifiers are lacking in some way ;-)

It's OK, I don't really think Richard Bews could care less about a few pages on a HiFi forum slamming cable differences. He does make them though, as in from scratch custom made wire, ribbon and cable, especially interested in tonearm, RCA and speaker cable.

The proof is in the pudding, having owned and listened to a lot of LFD gear, settling on PA2M(SE) amps and the DLS pre it's clear the brand isn't interested in fancy names either. Put it up against the usual magazine fare and it'll make them sound like toys though.

Interestingly LFD doesn't make XLRs because they don't think they make any real difference, they only recently started making a power cable, because again not really much in it. RCAs and speaker cables are a different subject.

 

[Julf]

Thing is, if you accept the second scenario as realistic, then it kinda follows that the noticing of the effect preceded the development and marketing of the product. That the effect is not amenable to easy measurement doesn't mean the effect is not perceived, just that we don't yet have a simple explanation for it.

Even if the effect is not amenable to easy measurement, it should be possible to characterise it - for example, it should affect analog electronics, but not digital (or vice versa), or affect class A amps but not class D, etc.

In reality, it seems the only thing it correlates to is sighted vs. unsighted listening.

It is also interesting (and fortunate), as adamdea observes, that the effect only occurs with audio gear, and not sensitive medical systems, flight control systems or coffee machines.

 

[adamdea]

It is possible to arrange words so as to obey the laws of syntax and yet contain nothing of any sense.

 

[whatsnext]

How many Night and Day experiences have our difference hearers and must tellers had?

Me I hear a slight difference I forget about after a while with line input, more so with phono and have heard vile noise others rave about with speaker cabling but not with mains cables or digital. Sorry I have tried, just doesn't happen.

A thought comes to mind are the difference hearers and must tellers romantic, artistic, imaginative souls who thrive on their creative efforts and cannot even change a fuse.

 

[Yomanze]

Some people are just "must tellers"...

 

[Lee T]

Presumably, at some point in the past, some charlatan set to thinking about how to increase his income from hifi sales, and hit upon the idea of fancy supports and fancy cables. And, many bandwaggons later, we find ourselves where we are.

It is inconceivable that somebody happened to notice a change in sound when they moved to a different surface, or used a different connecting cable, and did a bit of empirical experimentation and now we find ourselves where we are.

Isn't it?

Thing is, if you accept the second scenario as realistic, then it kinda follows that the noticing of the effect preceded the development and marketing of the product. That the effect is not amenable to easy measurement doesn't mean the effect is not perceived, just that we don't yet have a simple explanation for it.

To put it simply, if the product is useless the market for such a product fails quickly as anyone purchasing it soon realise it's a waste of money, as the market for cables is still going strong after so many years tells it's own story, of course there will be silly priced cables around as there is with any product on the market that has a strong following, if someone wants to waste there money it's up to them but it's at the sensible end of the market where it thrives, sensibly priced after market mains leads do change the sound of what they are attached to, an improvement is up to the individual but they do work, if they didn't the market for them would have ended before it began, as with anything.

 

[Julf]

To put it simply, if the product is useless the market for such a product fails quickly as anyone purchasing it soon realise it's a waste of money

According to that logic, the luxury wrist watch market would have failed long ago.

 

[Lee T]

This kind of thing is widespread throughout the industry. Manufacturers typically say their products must be used with the highest quality ancillary equipment. For instance this from ATC: ‘The SCM50 ASL (active) and SCM50 SL (passive) are designed to perform at their best in the recording studio or at home with the finest quality hi-fi equipment.’

The implication is: ‘our speakers are the very finest equipment too!’ Just imagine what it would sound like if ATC’s marketing said: ‘Frankly our speakers can be used with any competently designed electronics. TBH you won’t notice the difference!’

Ironically Rega state no such thing, the opposite in fact, yet I have found they are one the most sensitive to cabling, the last generation Rega Brio-r was especially sensitive to power. My current Brio 3 sounds worse with any aftermarket cable I have attached (Belden & Kimber in my case) the sound became quite dulled, lost it's bite & punch.

 

[Purité Audio]

Ironically Rega state no such thing, the opposite in fact, yet I have found they are one the most sensitive to cabling, the last generation Rega Brio-r was especially sensitive to power. My current Brio 3 sounds worse with any aftermarket cable I have attached (Belden & Kimber in my case) the sound became quite dulled, lost it's bite & punch.

Try and 'believe' that it didn't .
Keith

 

[Lee T]

According to that logic, the luxury wrist watch market would have failed long ago.

No, because the luxury wrist watch market is exactly as it states on the tin, a luxury item, the sensible end of the market is not the luxury end, high end cables sell quite rarely I would imagine, most spend sensibly with such a product, as do most who purchase a watch.

 

[Lee T]

Try and 'believe' that it didn't .
Keith

Blind Keith, through a couple of other amps, not so noticeable but definitely there, once the Rega entered the fray the sound worsened, it improved with my Rotel & Arcam, no way of switching the Naim though it was used, it was just too obvious which was the Nait 3 in the mix, stood out like a sore thumb.
Have you ever considered the expectation can be reversed, in your case for example, you would never allow yourself to believe such a cable could change the sound, have you tried a blind test with budget amps or cd players, if I was in your position, before claiming all sorts I would at the very least give this a go.
Before purchasing my cable, something I made myself a few years ago, I expected no change, I too felt the same way, how can this change anything, yet was surprised to find the opposite to what I expected.

 

[kabayiri]

Blind Keith, through a couple of other amps, not so noticeable but definitely there, once the Rega entered the fray the sound worsened, it improved with my Rotel & Arcam, no way of switching the Naim though it was used, it was just too obvious which was the Nait 3 in the mix, stood out like a sore thumb.
Have you ever considered the expectation can be reversed, in your case for example, you would never allow yourself to believe such a cable could change the sound, have you tried a blind test with budget amps or cd players, if I was in your position, before claiming all sorts I would at the very least give this a go.
Before purchasing my cable, something I made myself a few years ago, I expected no change, I too felt the same way, how can this change anything, yet was surprised to find the opposite to what I expected.

Look at the internal constraints enforced on the Brio by virtue of the packaging, and you can easily see where noise sources arise. It's a compromise though, as many things are at the value end of the market.

Maybe you should be campaigning for a bit more fresh air inside electronic devices. You do see this in some products which contain both digital and audio circuits.

 

[adamdea]

if they didn't the market for them would have ended before it began, as with anything.

Like the market for homeopathic remedies? I don;t know why you say "as with anything". People have bought rubbish, and on occasion nothing at all, for centuries. There is no immutable law that products based on relying on the vanity, optimism, desperation or fantasies of the purchaser are bound to die out. Au contraire.

Part of the beauty of selling tosh is that many of the people who buy it will go to the most extraordinary convolutions to avoid believing that they have been fooled or have fooled themselves.

If we were to indulge the fantasy that the audio market had stumbled upon a hitherto unknown property of cables which enable electronic devices to work more accurately, then surely we would have expected the use of these cables to spread beyond hifi to electronic devices generally. All I can see is that the relatively small market of people who want to buy hifi accessories to feed their habit of needing some new kit once in a while to stimulate their interest in listening to music is fairly stable but very profitable compared with the market for selling complex electronic devices. Selling this stuff is very rational if you are a vendor (as with extended warranties, their contribution to profits is very positive.)