Post-Trump: III (decline, further tantrums, legal proceedings, book deals etc)

[Arkless Electronics]

Not here in the UK. The NF, Britain First, EDL, UKIP etc are all perfectly legal no matter how many trains full of Yaxley Lennon’s thugs turn up in multicultural areas to bring their terrorism to Asian shops and businesses etc. Britain First are now a “legitimate political party” even after inciting the racial hatred and xenophobia that led to the murder of Jo Cox. Farage gets paid substantially for his racism which is apparently a desirable commodity on our TV channels.

PS As an anti-authoritarian I do struggle with forcefully gagging this shit, though I would personally proscribe the EDL and Britain First as they have a proven history of race violence and incitement. They are terrorist groups.

The Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 at least means they can't be blatant about it and they certainly cannot wave guns around as a threat. They can get away with placards saying "England for the English" etc but they would soon be arrested if they read "N****** out now!" or anything like that. Personally I'd build internment camps and lock all the above up. Conspiracy to commit a crime and going equipped to commit a crime are in themselves a crime and I fail to see how the very existence of groups such as Britain First is not incitement of racial and religious hatred.

 

[tones]

If that's what it takes to prevent the rise of a fascist USA then so be it.

I'm not sure that the world in general can afford that. As Yank above pointed out, the demarcation between the two sides is complicated, so, instead of the North v. South of the 1860s, there'd be a fight for the whole country, probably resulting in a series of violent local insurrections. The diversion of US attention would possibly mean a Russian grab for Ukraine and a Chinese grab for Taiwan. Worse, it's an appalling advertisement for the democracy that the US has always sought to represent and a boost for "strong man"-type rule everywhere as an insurance against chaos.

In the end, it relies on individual Americans seeing sense and realising that the other side is not the devil incarnate, and that further progress(??) down this road will lead to catastrophe. I'm not sure how that happens - closing Faux News and the social media echo chambers seems like a reasonable start.

P.S. Just looking again at the title of this thread, it would appear that Trump, far from declining, is in the ascendant.

 

[Seeker_UK]

P.S. Just looking again at the title of this thread, it would appear that Trump, far from declining, is in the ascendant.

Indeed. It's the fear of that that I'm sure is in part what drove POTUS to make such an attack on his predecessor at today's speech.

 

[Nick_G]

Indeed. It's the fear of that that I'm sure is in part what drove POTUS to make such an attack on his predecessor at today's speech.

"First came the days of the plague. Then came the dreams. Dark dreams that warned of the coming of the dark man. The apostate of death, his worn-down boot heels tramping the night roads. The warlord of the charnel house and Prince of Evil. His time is at hand. His empire grows in the west and the Apocalypse looms."

 

[Arkless Electronics]

I'm not sure that the world in general can afford that. As Yank above pointed out, the demarcation between the two sides is complicated, so, instead of the North v. South of the 1860s, there'd be a fight for the whole country, probably resulting in a series of violent local insurrections. The diversion of US attention would possibly mean a Russian grab for Ukraine and a Chinese grab for Taiwan. Worse, it's an appalling advertisement for the democracy that the US has always sought to represent and a boost for "strong man"-type rule everywhere as an insurance against chaos.

In the end, it relies on individual Americans seeing sense and realising that the other side is not the devil incarnate, and that further progress(??) down this road will lead to catastrophe. I'm not sure how that happens - closing Faux News and the social media echo chambers seems like a reasonable start.

P.S. Just looking again at the title of this thread, it would appear that Trump, far from declining, is in the ascendant.

Quite a can of worms there Tones!! The nature of the demarcation is obvious yes but I'm sure as hell the world cannot afford to have a fascist 4th reich USA... the fact that the difference may not be immediately obvious is of course worrying anyway! Which brings me to the point that the USA has always been an "appalling advertisement for the democracy" and has been responsible for "strong man type rule" by it's puppets more so than any other modern nation. Just ask all the countries that have had "democracy" imposed on them from the '50's onward!

One of my biggest bugbears with many of my fellow "liberal lefties" is this almost inane belief that all people are basically good and everything can be put right by love and debate.... "it relies on individual Americans seeing sense and realising that the other side is not the devil incarnate".... but one side IS the devil incarnate! This is not a case of two warring factions with equally legitimate aims and who just need to understand each others grievances by any means. As was so evident in WW2 you cannot placate evil.

 

[NeilR]

In the end, it relies on individual Americans seeing sense and realising that the other side is not the devil incarnate, and that further progress(??) down this road will lead to catastrophe. I'm not sure how that happens - closing Faux News and the social media echo chambers seems like a reasonable start.

 

[sean99]

In the end, it relies on individual Americans seeing sense and realising that the other side is not the devil incarnate, and that further progress(??) down this road will lead to catastrophe. I'm not sure how that happens - closing Faux News and the social media echo chambers seems like a reasonable start.

Again, I think this requires corporate America to stop funding this sh*t, but it seems that they are not stopping:
https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma...s-quickly-restored-funding-to-legislators-who

Apparently they think they can continue to profit if the US ceases to be a democracy - or maybe they think they can continue to support a party that is detached from reality and that nothing "really bad" will happen ? I think corporate America is in for a harsh lesson if they continue to fund GOP extremists, but for now they are blinkered by their greed and the fact that nothing "really bad" ever happened before in America.

 

[matthewr]

the demarcation between the two sides is complicated, so, instead of the North v. South of the 1860s, there'd be a fight for the whole country

The demarcation is just as clear (urban versus rural) it's just not as geographically separate.

In the end, it relies on individual Americans seeing sense and realising that the other side is not the devil incarnate

That argument doesn't really work when side is a minority and acting in bad faith.

IMHO one needs to see this as first and foremost a rural, white conservative America attempting to preserve its power via what is effectively minority rule. Although at this point I note it's traditional for a certain type of right wing poster to quote Federalist Papers and start banging on about Republics versus Democracies.

 

[sean99]

IMHO one needs to see this as first and foremost a rural, white conservative America attempting to preserve its power via what is effectively minority rule.

I disagree. I think this is all about corporate America and the 0.1% trying to minimize their tax burden and maximize their profits, and to do this they need a combination of
- an army of useful idiots - aka fox news viewers/ Qanon believers / culture war evangelists
- a political party willing to subvert democracy where the useful idiots are insufficient.

Rural white conservative Americans do not wield any power over Washington DC - they are being used.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

I disagree. I think this is all about corporate America and the 0.1% trying to minimize their tax burden and maximize their profits, and to do this they need a combination of
- an army of useful idiots - aka fox news viewers/ Qanon believers / culture war evangelists
- a political party willing to subvert democracy where the useful idiots are insufficient.

Rural white conservative Americans do not wield any power over Washington DC - they are being used.

It works both ways! Rural white conservative Americans have the power to vote in a far right bat shit crazy gov and said gov will then tend to enact far right bat shit crazy policies to placate the nutters and try and get re-elected.

The internet and social media have become a tool for spreading evil and to the extent that (as I've said before) I no longer favour democracy but believe a benign, left of centre, progressive dictatorship would be far better due to the fact that under today's prevailing conditions democracy tends to result in a "tyranny of the majority" whose collective aim is anything but benevolent.
Without an "echo chamber of evil", backed up by the MSM and no doubt involving state sponsored "trolling/subversion" on a huge scale, but all enabled by modern I.T, I very much doubt we would have had a drumpf, bozo, le pen, ballsuponara, brexit etc etc

Adding to the "perfect storm" has been the burgeoning population growth and tech growth that has reduced the size of the slice of the cake for many and threatens to for many others... hence the rural white conservative Americans and red wall brexiting types over here who would all rather shoot themselves in the foot than see "others" have a bit of the cake they've been allowed to hog for themselves until recently...

 

[PsB]

Rural white conservative Americans do not wield any power over Washington DC - they are being used.

They do actually, to some extent at least: it's called the Senate.

 

[matthewr]

I disagree. I think this is all about corporate America and the 0.1% trying to minimize their tax burden and maximize their profits, and to do this they need a combination of
- an army of useful idiots - aka fox news viewers/ Qanon believers / culture war evangelists
- a political party willing to subvert democracy where the useful idiots are insufficient.

Rural white conservative Americans do not wield any power over Washington DC - they are being used.

Except:

-- We are continually being reminded that the Democratic party fundamentally represents corporate America.
-- Corporate America is not racist but conservative politics clearly is.
-- The white rural minority includes conservative elites (McConnell, Koch, etc.) as well as poor farmers.
-- Conservative minority rule of course depends on rural white votes but its essence is about preserving the power of those red state (ie. interior, rural) elites.
-- Much of the anti-democratic trends we are seeing is about conservative elites attempting to overcome their eventual demographic relegation through nefarious means.

This is all on the GOP and recognising the one-sided nature of this is key for US politics on both the left and the right IMHO.

 

[Yank]

It works both ways! Rural white conservative Americans have the power to vote in a far right bat shit crazy gov and said gov will then tend to enact far right bat shit crazy policies to placate the nutters and try and get re-elected.

We also have institutions such as the Senate and the Electoral College that give rural whites disproportionate voting power and representation.

 

[sean99]

Agree it's one sided, but the GOP only does as it is told by its paymasters, and its paymasters are corporate America. The GOP will not change until their corporate donors order them to do so.

 

[sean99]

We also have institutions such as the Senate and the Electoral College that give rural whites disproportionate voting power and representation.

Which is why that demographic is so precisely targeted by right wing misinformation.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

We also have institutions such as the Senate and the Electoral College that give rural whites disproportionate voting power and representation.

Indeed. On both sides of the pond we need P.R to replace FPTP and in our case we need a constitution... in yours you need a constitution not cast in stone in primordial times.

Some way of preventing political parties from benefiting from peoples hatred, greed, fears, jealousies and selfishness and thereby further stoking that fire would be better still!! Hence my preference for the admittedly pie in the sky idea of a benevolent dictatorship....

We need a whole new way of politics, a tabula rasa, with no possibility of influence by vested interest, hence I should be made emperor of the planet immediately You know it makes sense.

 

[andvinylly]

Dictators are not in short supply, decent electrical repair guys are

 

[matthewr]

but the GOP only does as it is told by its paymasters, and its paymasters are corporate America.

Obviously corporate interests fund both parties and certain sectors (oil, tobacco, private prisons) favour the GOP., But when I think of the dominant GOP funders think mostly of people like these people : https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/07/us-republican-donors-offshore-paradise-papers

Although I note that the other demographic problem the GOP has is that many of their super donors are very old and in some cases actually dead.

Corporate money tends to go where the markets are. And the markets are increasingly in large urban centres, which is why outside of the aformrentioned dinosaur sectors, the Democratic party is increasinlgy the party of corporate interests rather than the GOP.

 

[wacko]

^ not corporate America as such but the ridiculously rich (thanks to numerous tax loopholes) old white owners of part of corporate America.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

As an aside... The degree to which corruption, vested interest, blatant unfairness, pork barrel politics, bribery etc etc are completely tolerated by electorates really fecks with my head! "Bread and circuses" etc I guess...

It's so brazen they don't even bother with "brown envelopes" anymore