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Post-Trump: III (decline, further tantrums, legal proceedings, book deals etc)

sq225917 said:
What do you do, the extremes on either side are equally unappealing? People in the middle ground will just lean back and watch it play out until it affects them directly.
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Where’s the “opposite extreme” though? The US Democrats are a corporate-driven centre party and UK Labour a right-wing authoritarian neoliberal party too cowed, disconnected and irrelevant to even support the trade union movement that birthed it.

The left has been driven out of all discussion and is little more than a marginalised scapegoat to be demonised along with academics, immigrants, LGBTQ+ folk etc. Again exactly the same pattern as in Germany in the 1930s. We’ve ended up with a choice on the ballot paper between actual fascism (Tory) and Thatcherism (Starmer). Any left or democratic options (Green, SNP, LD etc) will not obtain representation due to the rigged electoral system. The US is to my mind both better and worse; the right is far more violent and dangerous than ours and contains and enables several heavily armed terrorist militias (Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, KKK etc), but the Democrats seem a far more articulate, conviction-driven and credible party than Labour. A vastly more successful one too. Labour has been a truly hopeless opposition to minority elite rule in the UK and has been powerless for the vast majority of its 122 year existence.
 
sq225917 said:
What do you do, the extremes on either side are equally unappealing? People in the middle ground will just lean back and watch it play out until it affects them directly.

How do you fight fascism without becoming an extremist yourself? Genuinely what does history show us works?
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There are of course big examples of fascist regimes running out of support and going away: The Argentine Junta, Spain after Franco, Chile after Pinochet. Examples of fascist threats being headed-off before they become the regime are less obvious, that's just political and/or criminal justice action, tends not to be so much headline news, especially outside the place where it happens. You do it as you can, building on the biggest opposition base available, planning and fighting. Determination to win and good strategy and tactics, that's the general formula. Be smarter, see through them, build on your strengths. Start by knowing it's a war and what's at stake.
 
DonQuixote99 said:
Start by knowing it's a war and what's at stake.
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I think that's spot-on - recognise your enemy and know what's at stake - and then devise a strategy effectively to communicate this message. This seems to be the problem with the US Democrats - they seem to think that the Republicans will come around to doing the right thing, whereas it has become increasingly clear that this is not the case. They should constantly and consistently hold the Republicans' feet to the fire.
 
tones said:
I think that's spot-on - recognise your enemy and know what's at stake - and then devise a strategy effectively to communicate this message. This seems to be the problem with the US Democrats - they seem to think that the Republicans will come around to doing the right thing, whereas it has become increasingly clear that this is not the case. They should constantly and consistently hold the Republicans' feet to the fire.
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That's not my take away from Biden's recent speeches. He has been quite clear that democracy is at stake in the current elections. I'm sure this will continue to be his message in 2024.
 
tones said:
I think that's spot-on - recognise your enemy and know what's at stake - and then devise a strategy effectively to communicate this message. This seems to be the problem with the US Democrats - they seem to think that the Republicans will come around to doing the right thing, whereas it has become increasingly clear that this is not the case. They should constantly and consistently hold the Republicans' feet to the fire.
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Actions beyond the sphere of normal political positioning will likely be needed. More than 'communicating a message.'
 
Copied from Rick Wilson as above

At least loathing those of us who said "Never Trump" and ****ing meant it will give you a little hate boner.

Given what Grimes has mentioned regarding his miniature wiener I can understand why musk is a fan of genetic engineering and artificial insemination
 
sq225917 said:
What do you do, the extremes on either side are equally unappealing? People in the middle ground will just lean back and watch it play out until it affects them directly.

How do you fight fascism without becoming an extremist yourself? Genuinely what does history show us works?
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Some interesting ideas here. Perhaps key is that the center and the left need to compromise and work together to stop the far right.
 
^^^ Thanks for that Sean. Good stuff. Also, a short series of links led me to this: https://democracyparadox.com/2022/1...ns-against-the-politics-of-enemies/#more-7509

Highly recommend both the site and that particular essay, which delves into the implications of our saying in these times that 'democracy is on the line.' Clear description of democratic politics and what happens when it degenerates as it is now doing. Points out that however much clear recognition of the danger is needed, it's nonetheless antithetical to democracy to go from having adversaries to having enemies. We should look to the achieving the normal politics we desire in the future, even if we feel political war is thrust upon us. Strategy must seek to rehabilitate to body politic, not to cleanse it. My 'call to arms,' above, carries it's own dangers.
 
Tony L said:
Good thread from Rick Wilson on the GOP’s unwillingness to stand against extremism (Twitter).
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Don't like it. It's lecturing the GOP elite on how awful the Maga masses are. Except, the GOP elite did lots of stuff to *create* the MAGA masses. It wasn't all Trump, there's been a whole right wing propaganda machine in action. It's not like they just found these millions of people with extreme right allegiance. Those people were radicalized, and a lot of effort went into it! The people willing and able to do that are the actual problem.
 
DonQuixote99 said:
Don't like it. It's lecturing the GOP elite on how awful the Maga masses are. Except, the GOP elite did lots of stuff to *create* the MAGA masses. It wasn't all Trump, there's been a whole right wing propaganda machine in action. It's not like they just found these millions of people with extreme right allegiance. Those people were radicalized, and a lot of effort went into it! The people willing and able to do that are the actual problem.
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Quite - the nurturing of the Tea Party with their pseudo-grievances during the Obama years led directly to Trump.
 
I take your point. To be honest I struggle to see any good anywhere in any aspect of the Republican Party or their base. It is becoming impossible to avoid the word ‘fascist’. I had some respect for Liz Chaney even though I have zero overlap with her politically as at least she called it out. Schwarzenegger too. I don’t see that elsewhere though. They either actively welcome it or are cowed by those who do.
 
Trump had dinner with a Nazi. You can count on one hand the number of prominent Republican leaders who have been critical.
 
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