[Poll] A poll on whether Power Cords make a difference

[Lee T]

Surely that’s Wells’ Time Machine?

Aha

 

[whatsnext]

This post makes no sense that I can see. Could you re-post it in a way that does? Seriously, not trying to be funny.

How have you come to this conclusion may I ask.

If by most people, you mean a handful on a forum, then ok, your correct though you may want to check out the result thus far on the poll, just for clarity.

Did you watch the Paul Simon Graceland program on BBC4 last night?

 

[Foxman50]

I'm not sure who Dave is and I'm not sure how you conclude that I "don't know a resistor from a spark plug" when you've never met me (or any of my "ilk", whatever they are) and have know idea who I am or what I know. But that seems consistent with your approach of making conclusive statements about things you really don't fully understand, and then following it up with insults about arses and elbows.

But, seriously, do you really think that bodging hi fi for a living makes you the repository of "the entirety of mankind's scientific knowledge"? You are dangerous because you don't really know the thing you think you know, and you don't seem to grasp that there are limits to what you do know. And, frankly, you also seem to be a bit of a dick.

Quite frankly the best post on this thread and quite possibly the entire forum. IMHO that is, if i'm allowed an opinion that is, as according to some on here i'm not it would seem.

 

[Marky-Mark]

Maybe Arkless repeats himself because what he's stating negates the faith-based argument of pro-Foo and that argument is ignored. Seriously ... If the amplifier is relying on reservoir-stored current in a constant state then the only pro-Foo argument left is that the aftermarket cable has conditioned the current for storage to enhance it. And someone is going to have to weave quite the narrative to prove that one. Actually, it should be easy to prove or disprove by analyzing the difference in the current before and after entering the capacitor. Why has no one done that? Most importantly, why haven't the makers of aftermarket cable?

 

[Lee T]

Did you watch the Paul Simon Graceland program on BBC4 last night?

nope

 

[awkwardbydesign]

And, speaking now as a Physics PhD candidate, there is zero chance that the marketing guff of a few companies with a vested interest in selling overpriced cables to hi-fi enthusiasts is going to lead to a new period of revolutionary science. If there were the slightest prospect of that, the highly competitive research community would have been all over it long ago.

Although I agree with your point here, setting yourself up as an expert because you are now a Physics PhD candidate does your argument no favours. Better without that.
But I agree there is an enormous amount of guff, although sometimes it can obscure real effects, so discouraging researchers from even looking at the subject. Most of whom probably have no interest in hifi (like most normal people), plus where would their funding come from? Who is going to invest in this research, when there is no obvious prospect of immediate big profits? And the subject isn't very "sexy" to entice researchers. The only people likely to invest are probably those with a vested interest, which feeds into your criticism.

 

[whatsnext]

Some of the above posts are utterly appalling. You should be ashamed.

They are ashamed but too ashamed to admit it.

 

[awkwardbydesign]

W
BTW, Your cat looks like he go a few rounds with Mike Tyson

More that he already did. He has very few teeth left. But he's happy enough, as long as he has food and a lap.

 

[h.g.]

Sometimes, rather than throwing insults out and calling people stupid or thick or whatever, perhaps just stop for a moment and respect the fact that there is a difference of opinion which no amount of words or insults will fix.

But it isn't a difference of opinion but a difference of fact if you heard a difference. When a person performs a check and finds something unexpected only certain types of people will then conclude they have discovered something unknown to science rather than something is going on/broken which needs finding, understanding and fixing.

The temptation is to expect the majority to follow a rational response but recent evidence (including this poll on an example from the more extreme end) rather suggests that irrational fantasy is probably now held by the majority in the developed world in a wide range of areas. The mess this is starting to create in some of the more important areas should eventually lead to a correction at least in the areas that matter. However, audiophile fantasy began to dominate the mainstream of specialist home audio here (excluding the increasingly separate consumer and pro sectors) for sound economic reasons in the mid-to-late 70s and is still firmly in control. I doubt people's thinking will change quickly.

 

[droodzilla]

Although I agree with your point here, setting yourself up as an expert because you are now a Physics PhD candidate does your argument no favours. Better without that.
But I agree there is an enormous amount of guff, although sometimes it can obscure real effects, so discouraging researchers from even looking at the subject. Most of whom probably have no interest in hifi (like most normal people), plus where would their funding come from? Who is going to invest in this research, when there is no obvious prospect of immediate big profits? And the subject isn't very "sexy" to entice researchers. The only people likely to invest are probably those with a vested interest, which feeds into your criticism.

Sure, but expertise is relative and I simply wanted to establish that I'm not just some guy who's learned about Ohm's law at the local poly. Not that there's anything wrong with Ohm's law (or Polytechnics).

Public money is still used to fund pure research via the research councils (EPSRC etc). If there were the slightest possibility that mains cables have the effect some people claim they do, it would suggest there's some interesting new physics going on and researchers would be all over it. Trust me - everyone's out to make a big splash, and this would certainly be "sexy" enough to fit the bill.

One of the lecturers in my department teaches a module in the Physics of Music (including loudspeaker design) and has research interests in solid state physics (conductors and semi-conductors). He has zero interest in mains cables.

 

[Lee T]

He looks similar to a cat we feed, great pic BTW.

More that he already did. He has very few teeth left. But he's happy enough, as long as he has food and a lap.

 

[RossB]

And, speaking now as a Physics PhD candidate, there is zero chance that the marketing guff of a few companies with a vested interest in selling overpriced cables to hi-fi enthusiasts is going to lead to a new period of revolutionary science. If there were the slightest prospect of that, the highly competitive research community would have been all over it long ago.

I quite agree. But the vast amount of empirical evidence that cables do make a difference cannot be put entirely down to expectation bias, confirmation bias and gullibility. The hifi companies may not be able to explain it but it seems me that there is something at the core that can and should be explained, and it cannot be accounted for entirely by psychological factors any more than it can by the simple measurements of inductance, resistance and capacitance.

 

[Joe]

Although I agree with your point here, setting yourself up as an expert because you are now a Physics PhD candidate does your argument no favours. Better without that.
But I agree there is an enormous amount of guff, although sometimes it can obscure real effects, so discouraging researchers from even looking at the subject. Most of whom probably have no interest in hifi (like most normal people), plus where would their funding come from? Who is going to invest in this research, when there is no obvious prospect of immediate big profits? And the subject isn't very "sexy" to entice researchers. The only people likely to invest are probably those with a vested interest, which feeds into your criticism.

Surely everything electrical has a power lead ? Therefor , if power leads make such difference then there would be a world of worthwhile , lucrative research to be done on them? It surely cant just be limited to hi-fi can it ?

 

[Joe]

I quite agree. But the vast amount of empirical evidence that cables do make a difference

Where is this empirical evidence you speak of?...or did you mean anecdotal evidence?

 

[Marky-Mark]

I quite agree. But the vast amount of empirical evidence that cables do make a difference cannot be put entirely down to expectation bias, confirmation bias and gullibility. The hifi companies may not be able to explain it but it seems me that there is something at the core that can and should be explained, and it cannot be accounted for entirely by psychological factors any more than it can by the simple measurements of inductance, resistance and capacitance.

How can there be a "vast amount of empirical evidence that cables make a difference" but the companies that manufacture them can't explain it? This makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Mullardman]

I have said similar in speaker cable and interconnect threads...

All cables (and wires... there is a difference..) are known to exhibit certain properties. Impedance, capacitance and inductance mostly I believe. I also believe that such parameters are measured in terms of the length of cable (or wire) in circuit. I believe that applying capacitance, impedance and inductance to a circuit, has a filtering effect. ( We are now at, or possibly even beyond the limits of my 1965 'O' Level Physics..)
I'm aware that other effects are proposed .... 'skin effect' and possibly others. I'm also aware that cables and wires (when in a live circuit) can both generate, and be susceptible to.. electromagnetic waves.. ranging from 50Hz 'hum' to RFI and no doubt beyond.

So... All cables and wires are, at the same time, and to some degree, capacitors, resistors, inductors and.. filters.

So, the question becomes:

1. To what degree does a typical 1 metre of mains cable also act as a capacitor, resistor, inductor and filter, in addition to conducting the voltage and current it is employed to do.
2. To what degree, if any, are any of the above effects measurable, over 1 metre.
3. To what degree do any of the above effects exert an audible and measurable influence on the OUTPUT of the kit in question.

Brief research into the values for typical cables used in domestic applications, suggests that although varying quite significantly according to conductor cross section etc., all exhibit values for impedance of at most a few hundredths of one Ohm.

I recognise that there are many subtleties above and beyond this, for instance vary impredance with frequency etc.

But, we are dealing here with the onerous task of getting 230v at 50Hz along 1m of cable.. unscathed.

So I would suggest that the answers to my questions above, for all practical purposes, an dealing with 'normal' cable/wire lengths.. are:

1. Not much.
2. Entirely measurable, but very small.
3. SFA.

Thank you.

 

[droodzilla]

I quite agree. But the vast amount of empirical evidence that cables do make a difference cannot be put entirely down to expectation bias, confirmation bias and gullibility. The hifi companies may not be able to explain it but it seems me that there is something at the core that can and should be explained, and it cannot be accounted for entirely by psychological factors any more than it can by the simple measurements of inductance, resistance and capacitance.

Anecdotes are not evidence. Scientists need replicable data (replicable under controlled conditions, that is) before they can even begin to theorise productively.

 

[Paul Mc]

Sure, but expertise is relative and I simply wanted to establish that I'm not just some guy who's learned about Ohm's law at the local poly. Not that there's anything wrong with Ohm's law (or Polytechnics).

Public money is still used to fund pure research via the research councils (EPSRC etc). If there were the slightest possibility that mains cables have the effect some people claim they do, it would suggest there's some interesting new physics going on and researchers would be all over it. Trust me - everyone's out to make a big splash, and this would certainly be "sexy" enough to fit the bill.

One of the lecturers in my department teaches a module in the Physics of Music (including loudspeaker design) and has research interests in solid state physics (conductors and semi-conductors). He has zero interest in mains cables.

You have mate blah blah. And yes everyone who hears a difference, including long established journalists, dealers and designers are making it all up to fleece stupid people.

 

[Paul Mc]

Anecdotes are not evidence. Scientists need replicable data (replicable under controlled conditions, that is) before they can even begin to theorise productively.

Actually anecdote are evidence.

 

[Paul Mc]

Maybe Arkless repeats himself because what he's stating negates the faith-based argument of pro-Foo and that argument is ignored. Seriously ... If the amplifier is relying on reservoir-stored current in a constant state then the only pro-Foo argument left is that the aftermarket cable has conditioned the current for storage to enhance it. And someone is going to have to weave quite the narrative to prove that one. Actually, it should be easy to prove or disprove by analyzing the difference in the current before and after entering the capacitor. Why has no one done that? Most importantly, why haven't the makers of aftermarket cable?

He goes on at length saying the same thing over and over and over again. I'm ****ing bored.