advertisement


Please Help! LP12 upgrade gone wrong...

S

silverdarter

Active Member
I recently upgraded my LP12 and whilst it brought some improvements, it also went downhill in other areas. I am a musician and producer, but it has only been in the last 6 months that I've had a home system that really brought recorded music to life. So I'm experienced with audio (studio and live), but an audiophile-in-training as it were! Currently experimenting with setups / different gear. So any advice on the LP12 changes would be extremely useful. I am taking it back to the specialist on Thursday for a listening session to show them the issues. But perhaps you can spot something in the chain that might be the culprit?

I use a Naim Unitilite, Musical Fidelity V90-LPS, Nexera phono cables, QED Silver Anniversary XT and a pair of original Rogers LS3/5A (15 Ohm).

Turntable Previous Spec: 1984 LP12 - Basik LV-V arm, Adikt cartridge (second version - new old stock) new Valhalla, everything else original.

Turntable Updated Spec: I had a secondhand Cirkus bearing installed with a secondhand pre-Majik subchassis. I also put the Adikt onto an Ittok LVIII (earlier version) which came in superb physical condition from HiFi Hangar.

Why I did it: I had previously upgraded from a Denon DP-15F with OM 10 and found that the LP12 had a really beautiful sound and opened things up a lot, but thought it a bit thin on the lower end, and noted that for orchestral music, some of the depth that I was getting with the Denon (for example - the ability to truly visualise the orchestra with eyes closed) had vanished. I did also notice some of the 'grit' had gone. For example the epic guitar solo on Supertramp's 'Goodbye Stranger' lost its edge. The mids and top end in general were astonishing however, and everything was working really well with the Rogers to make non-musician friends squeak with excitement or cry, depending on the track!

Result of Upgrades: The lower end is dramatically improved, beautifully clean, well-rounded and warm. Drums sound incredible and bass is clear and joyful. But the mids have been destroyed and the 'magic' previously present has been lost. It feels like something is now fighting the very strength of the LS3/5A. At low levels it's ok, but at volume the mids quickly disintegrate and become harsh. Vocals become sibilant, lead guitars screech and make me wince - it is no longer a pleasure listening to music unfortunately. Whereas (despite a few areas I wanted improvement in), it was always a complete joy previously. On top of this, orchestral music now definitely sounds more synthetic, sterilised and muted. Driving it harder doesn't open it out. Magic is a funny word to use, but it is appropriate as things really sang before. There was a considerable amount of emotion that came across, but this has been mostly deleted by these harsh mids / whatever is wrong.

I have bought a Linn Karma cartridge as I heard it has a warm sound - I'm wondering if this will help, but feel like I might be trying to patch things up, rather than root out the culprit. Ultimately I'd like to get a valve amplifier, perhaps a Rogers E20, for more warmth and to ensure harmony with the LS3/5A.

Anyway, I am pretty confused and slightly panicked, as surely an Ittok is a great upgrade over a Basik LV-V. Likewise with the Cirkus etc. But I know that 'better' or 'more expensive' doesn't always translate to an improvement, and any change can unsettle the balance of a system. One thought I have had is to revert some of the changes and do them again, one by one. Rather like Sherlock Holmes, cracking the case through the process of elimination.

I would really welcome any advice please. Upto and including 'You fool! How on earth could you contemplate pairing X with Y, change that for Z and you should get a better result.'
 
There is at least one member already incoming with "You ruined everything with Cirkus bearing!"

In the meantime, is your cart really aligned correctly? And how sure are you Ittok is good condition?

But perhaps there's a simple truth in: No LP12 sounds as good as your first one (whatever spec that was).
 
I don’t think you have made any bad decisions - you can always spend more on LP12 upgrades, but I would expect what you have done to help the whole frequency range. In particular, a working Ittok should help treble, not kill it. The next step is to do exactly what you are doing - don’t panic but do take it to the dealer.

One thing that some have usefully done when at the dealer is to hear a really high-spec LP12. After all, if you hear Karousel, Keel, Ekos 2, Krystal (or above), Radikal 2 and all that and you hate it, then the current upgrade path may not be for you. If you hear that and like it, then the problem here is one or more pieces of implementation, not the chosen direction of travel.

Please let us know how you get on.

Good luck!
 
I think a bearing check on the Ittok is in order. Certainly the newer sub chassis-bearing will make the deck more accurate and a bit less euphoric but it wouldn’t be doing that. Sounds like a duff arm to me, unless the obvious and already mentioned cartridge alignment is good.
 
Perhaps there is something in the setup of the turntable that is off, who did the setup? What is the turntable sitting on?
 
You do not say if you reinstalled the motor. Regardless check the platter speed is correct. A deck that runs fast will be brighter and this could well introduce more harshness than you are comfortable with.

Check arm height and tracking weight. Experiment within the limits of the cartridge spec.

Check sub chassis/platter bounce. Contrary to what some people on this forum believe the LP12 usually has excellent speed stability if set up correctly. However the complexity of the asymmetric spring arrangement has added potential for introducing resonance issues depending on where the deck is sited. Instability at higher volumes could be attributable to a resonance issue.
 
How much are you willing to check yourself vs need a dealer to do for you?
Here's what I would do, adjust if not right:
Check the oil level
Check the torque on the bearing bolts
Check the arm board for square and level
Check the bounce
Check that the deck is level
Check that the arm is level
Check that the cartridge is fitted correctly (protractor)
Check azimuth and tracking weight
Check the speed with a strobe.
 
Buy a blue belt from MikeP and, as Insoles are not available for now, some Audio Silente mushrooms. 100 quid, check set up and listen.
 
Check this, adjust that, lubricate the other... Jeez! Faff galore, yet Nirvana never arrives.

Just possibly, if you listen to classical music... realise that it is not well served by the LP format and get your sounds from a digital source? Then just play music?
 
The Cirkus bearing has a lot more detail in the higher frequency's & loses a lot of the low end bloom that characterized the original bearing. As such bass power ( the warmth you heard) may not be to your liking. Also with this extra definition in the higher frequency's the deck may now be portraying (bad) points that were previously masked. This, together with the Ittok's not so terrible but has (IMPOV) to some extent a somewhat grainy & harsh top end which could be to blame.

I think many would disagree with me on the Ittok but having heard both the Ekos 1/2 & Ittok it becomes clear where it's weaknesses show itself. The later the Ittok tho' the better they are.
 
What are you using as an amp? LS/35as can be difficult. No difference with a digital source? I would get the suspension fiddled, and yeah, maybe check the tonearm bearings, height and cartridge alignment. Based on your description, the arm pillar may be a bit too high.

While the Karma is a fine cartridge, they have not been made for 30 years, and I would not think that it will be easy to find a good one. Not to mention it is a Moving Coil cartridge and your phono preamp does not have enough gain for that.
 
per-Sony-fied said:
The Cirkus bearing has a lot more detail in the higher frequency's & loses a lot of the low end bloom that characterized the original bearing.
Click to expand...

How is that possible? A bearing can do that? Really? How?
Enlighten me please (in a technical/scientific way that I can understand).
 
chartz said:
How is that possible? A bearing can do that? Really? How?
Enlighten me please (in a technical/scientific way that I can understand).
Click to expand...
I'm sorry I can't be explaining in the scientific manner you would like but I'm going by the differences that were evident between my mates Sondek that had the original bearing equipped with an Ittok & mine that was updated to the Cirkus with an Akito. Both of us very aware of each others decks performance. My mates deck was clearly the best performer prior to the Cirkus bearing change. However it was noted by my mate & myself how we could hear now all the crackles & pops on the record & there was a marked shift in detail retrieval. Something my mate did not like he preferred the warmth of his deck with it's laid back character that ebbed and flowed in a way that was engaging.

Maybe due to tighter tolerances providing a quieter bearing, hence improved noise floor & a beefier, more robust design to provide a more secure fixing.
 
chartz said:
How is that possible? A bearing can do that? Really? How?
Enlighten me please (in a technical/scientific way that I can understand).
Click to expand...
I think the key differences are, tighter machining tolerances, and a more robust mounting interface, I believe the sub chassis is stiffer than the earlier versions but I’ve not tested that nor seen any test results… to my ears the Cirkus is quieter, and the Karousel quieter again… meaning the quiet parts of tracks and the bits between tracks are truly quiet.
 
Setup, I t’ll be the setup somehow.

Check the basics on the cartridge setup and work out from there. While it could be an odd issue somewhere else it’s unlikely compared to the high chance that something hasn’t been done right on the setup. Whole deck has been rebuilt. Start on the cartridge and work out from there.
 
chartz said:
How is that possible? A bearing can do that? Really? How?
Enlighten me please (in a technical/scientific way that I can understand).
Click to expand...

I was just going to ask the same question in other ways... not doubting the perceived difference with a cirkus (never heard one), but how could it be measured for the objectivists?
 
I was trained to mechanics and electronics so that would be interesting. I know what a good bearing is, tight tolerances, low friction and as little play as possible. But how does that affect vinyl replay at just 33 rpm?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top