PISA Tests - UK falls outside of top 20

[clivem2]

Isn't it mostly coursework these days? It is for degree subjects.

For GCSEs and A level coursework is still present but at a much lower level than a few years ago. The changes for this year have toughened things up too. It all varies by exam board of course. Likewise with degrees, you need to assess what you think of as a good university and how they measure their students.

 

[Paul R]

Although (obviously) educational standards in the UK are at a local nadir, didn't a recent Radio 4 programme rip PISA a new one and show that the tests weren't very good?

A look at the sample questions linked upthread confirms that, IMO.

Paul

 

[Joe Hutch]

For GCSEs and A level coursework is still present but at a much lower level than a few years ago. The changes for this year have toughened things up too. It all varies by exam board of course. Likewise with degrees, you need to assess what you think of as a good university and how they measure their students.

I was going by my daughters' experiences of GCSEs, which are several years ago now and which seemed to involve a large element of coursework. Back in my day, for O and A levels you were shut in a room and expected to rely solely on your memory of whatever you'd been taught in the previous two years to pass the exams. Ditto for university; both my daughters' 'finals' seemed to be over in a flash, and their degree level was predicated mostly on coursework, whereas I can recall several days of solid exams for my finals, with coursework being only a minor element of the degree.

 

[Jonathan Ribee]

I'm comparing the Maths, Physics and Chemistry I did vs the very similar A levels my son took last year. The knowledge requirements were much greater for my son and the depth of thinking greater. What people have only recently realised is that taking an exam 5 to 8 times allows kids to get better results vs the 2 attempts I was allowed (dual attempts were rare too).

I have occasionally taken Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Biology A level papers from recent years. Probably not in the last 4 years, maybe 5.So maybe they have improved in the last few years.

There were occasional subject areas that I just know nothing about - which may add to the breadth argument. But in general they seemed to require a lower level of depth of knowledge and critical thinking than I remember.

I can accept that as I have studied the Maths and a lot of the Physics to a higher level (albeit a long time ago) this may skew my recollection - but the Chemistry and Biology also seemed more trivial than I remember and I haven't touched this since school.

I did do the more respected boards when I took these, so maybe I have just looked at some dodgy boards more recently.

Certainly the standard of pupil/student received into the workplace over the last few years seems to have degraded. Capabilities that you would have assumed present - ability to apply logic to tasks, critical thinking, some sort of personal resourcefulness, in some cases basic English and maths skils - not present.

I do keep challenging myself that maybe I'm looking at this from the POV of wisdom from age and the 22 year old me would seem just as idiotically gauche and ill equipped - but I really don't think so. The gap is a little too glaring.

It is probably hard to judge as to whether some of this is parental, societal or purely education - but as almost every teacher I know over 40 bemoans the drop in educational standards based on what they are asked to teach [and I have a family full of said teachers - it's a topic best avoided at dinner] I assume it must have something to do with it.

"Teach the curriculum so they can pass the test. Understanding is not important or required." Was the scariest quote.

 

[Bob McC]

Gove's mantra surely.

 

[KC Cantiaci]

On the BBC this morning, they were commenting on Korean children and the long school days they have. They had a sample of 15/16 year olds and gave them questions from a UK maths GCSE paper and these students finished the tests in approx half the expected time and IIRC, most got 100%. The students said the questions were quite easy.

Interesting comment within the VT - a mother said she wasn't happy that her daughter spent so much time at school but as their country doesn't have much in the way of natural resources, their main asset was their people so they invest time and effort in the people by way of education. The reporter also highlighted that Korea went from 'mass illiteracy to technological powerhouse' in 2 generations.

Korea may have gone too far with pressure being felt by its citizens as they do have a high suicide rate so it would appear some adjustments are needed. But I do admire their drive and ambition to succeed.

 

[Spike]

Jonathan,

A-Levels have changed drastically in the last 5 years. To say that O-Level text book is A-Level standard now is rot!!! OCRs Advancing Physics A-Level was designed by IOP and Institute of Education, it is pretty cutting edge. A-Level Biology contains stuff way beyond O-Level ever did. Try doing some recent papers. I'm very happy to mail you an Advancing Physics or Biology paper. You will be suprised.

 

[Rico]

I never realised Shanghai was a separate country.

it's not a country you know, it's a bank wot people live in, like.

 

[Steven Toy]

I have occasionally taken Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Biology A level papers from recent years. Probably not in the last 4 years, maybe 5.So maybe they have improved in the last few years.

There were occasional subject areas that I just know nothing about - which may add to the breadth argument. But in general they seemed to require a lower level of depth of knowledge and critical thinking than I remember.

I can accept that as I have studied the Maths and a lot of the Physics to a higher level (albeit a long time ago) this may skew my recollection - but the Chemistry and Biology also seemed more trivial than I remember and I haven't touched this since school.

I did do the more respected boards when I took these, so maybe I have just looked at some dodgy boards more recently.

Certainly the standard of pupil/student received into the workplace over the last few years seems to have degraded. Capabilities that you would have assumed present - ability to apply logic to tasks, critical thinking, some sort of personal resourcefulness, in some cases basic English and maths skils - not present.

I do keep challenging myself that maybe I'm looking at this from the POV of wisdom from age and the 22 year old me would seem just as idiotically gauche and ill equipped - but I really don't think so. The gap is a little too glaring.

It is probably hard to judge as to whether some of this is parental, societal or purely education - but as almost every teacher I know over 40 bemoans the drop in educational standards based on what they are asked to teach [and I have a family full of said teachers - it's a topic best avoided at dinner] I assume it must have something to do with it.

"Teach the curriculum so they can pass the test. Understanding is not important or required." Was the scariest quote.

The test should be of understanding.

 

[tomek]

Of course Shanghai and Hong Kong are not separate countries, but even without them UK will be 24 instead of 26.

Since 1999 i was many time in South Korea, i spent there alltogeher over one year and everybody there is working very hard and childrens are learning very, very hard.

Interesting here is the fact, that childrens in South Korea are learning so hard, but the difference between Korea and best european countries is very small.

Reading: Place 5 S. Korea 536, 6 Finnland 524, 7 Ireland 523, 10 Poland 518

Science: Place 7 S. Korea 538, 5 Finnland 545, 6 Estonia 541, 9 Poland 526

Maths: Place 5 S. Korea 554, 8 Liechtenstein 535 , 9 Switzerland 531, 10 Netherlands 523

It means for me, that few european countries found the way to teach childrens in more effective and probably more pleasant way and UK should look at those countries and not on IMHO "economically militarized " asian countries.

Not just blind learning, learning, learning. Skilfull pedagogic methods are more effective.

 

[Spike]

Steven,

"The test should be of understanding."

No it shouldnt. Understanding is very low in Blooms Taxonomy ie low level!

 

[Jonathan Ribee]

Jonathan,

A-Levels have changed drastically in the last 5 years. To say that O-Level text book is A-Level standard now is rot!!! OCRs Advancing Physics A-Level was designed by IOP and Institute of Education, it is pretty cutting edge. A-Level Biology contains stuff way beyond O-Level ever did. Try doing some recent papers. I'm very happy to mail you an Advancing Physics or Biology paper. You will be suprised.

Thank the almighty (Boycott, obviously) that it's improved.

I'll nab some recent papers from my "dealer" and have a look. I imagine there are ones being used to set mock exams as we type.

 

[KC Cantiaci]

Jonathan,

A-Levels have changed drastically in the last 5 years. To say that O-Level text book is A-Level standard now is rot!!! OCRs Advancing Physics A-Level was designed by IOP and Institute of Education, it is pretty cutting edge. A-Level Biology contains stuff way beyond O-Level ever did. Try doing some recent papers. I'm very happy to mail you an Advancing Physics or Biology paper. You will be suprised.

So why the change? What happened to make such drastic changes?

 

[Mullardman]

Since the 1960's, education policy has been geared to an impossible dream, equality of outcome. All that has been achieved in reality is a dumbing down of the whole system so that on paper, more people are achieving reasonable results.

The reality is that the value of the achieved results has become debased.

The PISA results highlight this.

Chris

Rubbish. It was geared to equal opportunity, which is not the same thing and also IIR is what gave you a chance to get out from under.

Mull

 

[Mullardman]

Who gives a shit about the 1800's let alone the 1960's, was education policy set 50 years ago and never allowed to be changed?

There is too much emphasis on qualifications and university, we need to convert half the universities to polys and get vocational courses back. It's about time plumbing, building, engineering etc became respected vocations and we stopped thinking that degrees are the ultimate.

Labours insistence on so many going to Uni has fuc*ed generations of kids and employers no longer give any credence to degree qualifications.

A post which sadly reveals your lack of understanding of the current structure of UK post compulsory education.

Mull

 

[Laurie Saunders]

Nonsense. Schools get children for the bulk of their alert hours, plus extra evening time for homework. If you want to throw the 'problem' back to me then give me back my children.

And given the average teacher's pay is something over £40 000 I think I have a right to expect them to be competent.

Paul

1. True...but parents get their children 100% 0f the time for the first 5 years or so when the bulk of the "damage" occurs
2. I`d be interested to know where your figure of "average pay of over £40,000" comes from

The most "damaged" students I meet are those that have been home educated by parents concerned that the school experience is poor.

laurie

 

[Laurie Saunders]

Jonathan,

A-Levels have changed drastically in the last 5 years. To say that O-Level text book is A-Level standard now is rot!!! OCRs Advancing Physics A-Level was designed by IOP and Institute of Education, it is pretty cutting edge. A-Level Biology contains stuff way beyond O-Level ever did. Try doing some recent papers. I'm very happy to mail you an Advancing Physics or Biology paper. You will be suprised.

Having some experience in this area, my view is that although superficially the syllabus content is similar in depth,and the textbooks are now very flashy... the examinations certainly are not..with far more highly structured questions leading candidates through solutions one step at a time rather than in the old days...simple one-line questions leaving the candidate to figure out all the steps themselves. Also the nature of the questions is much more routine and predictable

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that grade inflation has been significant...this also feeds through to degrees...when I did mine, maybe 5% got a first, 10% a 2.1 with around half a 2.2. Many degrees now achieve 60% + of 2.1`s.. and I`ve worked with some of these ex students......a large part of their degree was achieved via assignments rather than exams, where several re-submissions are allowed!...

laurie

 

[BlueEyes]

Having some experience in this area, my view is that although superficially the syllabus content is similar in depth,and the textbooks are now very flashy... the examinations certainly are not..with far more highly structured questions leading candidates through solutions one step at a time rather than in the old days...simple one-line questions leaving the candidate to figure out all the steps themselves. Also the nature of the questions is much more routine and predictable

laurie

In my day, you might get a comment or question as a examination question.

Heaven preserve you if you misunderstood the question as you would get no marks and would be likely to lose so many marks that you might not be able to make them up elsewhere in order to pass the paper.

Are you saying that the candidate is now being "coached" through the question?

 

[Laurie Saunders]

In my day, you might get a comment or question as a examination question.

Heaven preserve you if you misunderstood the question as you would get no marks and would be likely to lose so many marks that you might not be able to make them up elsewhere in order to pass the paper.

Are you saying that the candidate is now being "coached" through the question?

yes

laurie

 

[Re-Joyce]

And given the average teacher's pay is something over £40 000 I think I have a right to expect them to be competent.

Paul

Maybe in US Dollars not UK Pounds:
http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/content/table/teachsal-table-en