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Phono stages and diminishing returns?

A

anuenlil

pfm Member
I'm the happy owner of a Michell Gyrodec mk3 with HR power supply, SME series V arm, and recently rebuilt Allaerts MC1B. For my phonostage, I chose the Graham Slee Accession MC. Have been happy with the system but lately find myself wondering whether the Allaerts would shine better with a different phono preamp.

Against: (1) the Accession seems like a fine thing by any standard; (2) Jan Allaerts didn't seem very concerned with choice of phonostage when discussing it with him; (3) when I read reports of people who made the switch from one phonostage to another in the £1500+ region, it's not hard to discern a level of "diminishing returns" -- its very often about "even quieter backgrounds", "small but significant details", etc.

Pro: (1) most phonostages at the price point of the Accession and above (with the exception of the LFD MCT SE, which I am also contemplating since I already have an NCSE mk2) have elaborate options for dialing in resistance and gain. Perhaps that does count for something important? (2) perhaps my impression of diminishing returns above £1500+ is inaccurate, and e.g. a PS Audio Stellar Phono, a Tron, or an LFD MCT SE will be vastly superior to the Graham Slee?

Anyone with more experience of expensive phonostages and MC cartridges (there must be more than a few here), do enlighten me!
 
A couple of years ago I had a few different phono stages in the space of a few months. I’d had a Raga Aria in my system for a couple of years.

Firstly, I bought a Cyrus phono signature with psx-r2. Was ok but it sounded too digital to and also lacked the soundstage of the Aria so sold it.

I then bought a brand new Naim Stageline and ran that out of the back of my Supernait 2. Sounded great but, it picked up every airborne signal going and had hum, it then broke after a month so returned for a full refund. When I demoed the Stageline, I heard it up against a Tom Evans Groove plus, that was very nice but it was quite a thin sound but very detailed.

After I returned the stageline, I bought a Rega Aura, it sounded better than all of the others and it was just more analogue sounding. I’ve now had this for a year or so now and absolutely love it, it’s a keeper for sure.

I learned that phono stages all tend to sound very different and not something you can buy blind.

Dan.
 
anuenlil said:
I'm the happy owner of a Michell Gyrodec mk3 with HR power supply, SME series V arm, and recently rebuilt Allaerts MC1B. For my phonostage, I chose the Graham Slee Accession MC. Have been happy with the system but lately find myself wondering whether the Allaerts would shine better with a different phono preamp.

Against: (1) the Accession seems like a fine thing by any standard; (2) Jan Allaerts didn't seem very concerned with choice of phonostage when discussing it with him; (3) when I read reports of people who made the switch from one phonostage to another in the £1500+ region, it's not hard to discern a level of "diminishing returns" -- its very often about "even quieter backgrounds", "small but significant details", etc.

Pro: (1) most phonostages at the price point of the Accession and above (with the exception of the LFD MCT SE, which I am also contemplating since I already have an NCSE mk2) have elaborate options for dialing in resistance and gain. Perhaps that does count for something important? (2) perhaps my impression of diminishing returns above £1500+ is inaccurate, and e.g. a PS Audio Stellar Phono, a Tron, or an LFD MCT SE will be vastly superior to the Graham Slee?

Anyone with more experience of expensive phonostages and MC cartridges (there must be more than a few here), do enlighten me!
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I was considering a change of phono stage from my current Prefix last year. The Prefix was powered by my 52. In the context of my system I was looking at a Superline or Lejonklou entity. The cost of a used SL was similar to a new entity. Now it’s so difficult to audition a change of phono stage properly and at home, it was difficult for me to get my head round how I would decide. I then read several posts about powering the Prefix with a Supercap. Big belly laugh, totally over the top I thought. Then my brain started whirring and thought, I can get a Supercap for less than the cost of either of the above and just plug it in with the addition of one more cable. If I didn’t like it, I could easily shift the Supercap and cable and get back what I paid for them. So I bought a Supercap. And what a difference it made. Diminishing returns is certainly a “thing” in this hobby but not for me in this particular case. I imagine that the above two stages might give subtle improvements over what I have now (maybe), but the improvement was so marked that I have no desire to change what I have now.
 
Pretty sure I've read somewhere on here, (possibly one of Graham Trickers postings?) that you need to be careful with phonostages with the MC1B as if theres any spike in current coming out of the PS (not sure how that would happen?), the very fine signal wires used are easily damaged. For that reason use of a SUT into a decent MM is advisable.
 
anuenlil said:
I'm the happy owner of a Michell Gyrodec mk3 with HR power supply, SME series V arm, and recently rebuilt Allaerts MC1B. For my phonostage, I chose the Graham Slee Accession MC. Have been happy with the system but lately find myself wondering whether the Allaerts would shine better with a different phono preamp.

Against: (1) the Accession seems like a fine thing by any standard; (2) Jan Allaerts didn't seem very concerned with choice of phonostage when discussing it with him; (3) when I read reports of people who made the switch from one phonostage to another in the £1500+ region, it's not hard to discern a level of "diminishing returns" -- its very often about "even quieter backgrounds", "small but significant details", etc.

Pro: (1) most phonostages at the price point of the Accession and above (with the exception of the LFD MCT SE, which I am also contemplating since I already have an NCSE mk2) have elaborate options for dialing in resistance and gain. Perhaps that does count for something important? (2) perhaps my impression of diminishing returns above £1500+ is inaccurate, and e.g. a PS Audio Stellar Phono, a Tron, or an LFD MCT SE will be vastly superior to the Graham Slee?

Anyone with more experience of expensive phonostages and MC cartridges (there must be more than a few here), do enlighten me!
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Although not all phonostages offer alot of flexibility for resistance and gain I do think that it's very important to have any cartridge 'dialed in' correctly.
Much in the same way as it's very important to have the mechanical and geometrical aspects of the cartridge and tonearm 'set up' correctly.
What may seem a minor increment may result in a major change in what's heard.

I don't have enough experience with £1.5K + phonostages to comment on the 'diminishing returns' aspect but definitely different types of phonostages can have very different sound whether solid state, SUT and valve or J-fet & valve, etc, for MCs.
 
anuenlil said:
I'm the happy owner of a Michell Gyrodec mk3 with HR power supply, SME series V arm, and recently rebuilt Allaerts MC1B. For my phonostage, I chose the Graham Slee Accession MC. Have been happy with the system but lately find myself wondering whether the Allaerts would shine better with a different phono preamp.

Against: (1) the Accession seems like a fine thing by any standard; (2) Jan Allaerts didn't seem very concerned with choice of phonostage when discussing it with him; (3) when I read reports of people who made the switch from one phonostage to another in the £1500+ region, it's not hard to discern a level of "diminishing returns" -- its very often about "even quieter backgrounds", "small but significant details", etc.

Pro: (1) most phonostages at the price point of the Accession and above (with the exception of the LFD MCT SE, which I am also contemplating since I already have an NCSE mk2) have elaborate options for dialing in resistance and gain. Perhaps that does count for something important? (2) perhaps my impression of diminishing returns above £1500+ is inaccurate, and e.g. a PS Audio Stellar Phono, a Tron, or an LFD MCT SE will be vastly superior to the Graham Slee?

Anyone with more experience of expensive phonostages and MC cartridges (there must be more than a few here), do enlighten me!
Click to expand...
Morning @anuenlil

Having bought the Valab from you, and remembering your comments, I think you’d get on well with Aurorasounds Vida phono stage. A similar vibe to the Valab, but a bit more of everything.

The only other phonostage have owned that I would rank alongside the Vida is Art Audio’s Vinyl one. That has a larger, looser sound than the LCR units, but it’s wonderfully ‘live’ and organic. My unit was MM, which I used successfully with a number of different SUTs.
 
For a long time, I used a Kondo M7 preamp with built-in MM phono stage. Front end was a Grand Prix Audio Parabolica turntable, Viv Labs 7” arm, Kondo IoM cartridge, Kondo SFz transformer. I wondered if the revered Kondo M7 Phono stand-alone phono stage would make a big (or any) improvement, using the M7 preamp as a line stage. A trip to Definitive Audio was in order.

Short answer, yes. Massive improvement across the board: much bigger soundstage, much more texture within the soundstage, instruments far better separated out and resolved with the soundstage, far easier to follow individual instruments, etc. Overall, a much more enjoyable, understandable and exciting experience in musical terms (as opposed to a hi-fi experience).

Next step, I wanted to compare the Kondo M7 Phono with the SJS Model 6 MM phono stage. The Kondo M7 Phono is no longer made but rare used models are expensive. The SJS is readily available and about half the price of the M7 (but still expensive). Short answer again, the SJS was better than the M7 (in this system). No question. The SJS is just a box, with no provision for changing resistance or loading. I bought the SJS.

I don’t personally believe in diminishing returns. Every time I have changed components, it has generally made a fundamental difference to my system. A good phono stage is crucial and can make a massive difference to your system.
 
Are you are using th standard PSU1 power supply with your Accession? Just a thought before going for a replacement phono stage have you tried the higher spec Enigma power supply? Some reports say there can be a noticeable improvement. Might be worth a call to John C and arrange a trial.
 
Phono stages do make an audible difference. I have an Allaerts MC1B, which feeds into my mid 2000s vintage TRON Comet preamp with on board MC phono (using SUTs). I did try the entry level TRON Convergence with the Allaerts and this sounded significantly better than the onboard phone on the Comet.
 
You have plenty quality in your front end, so would likely hear the difference in a suitably improved phono stages. When I had a Gyrodec I went from a P75 to a Whest 30 to Tron 7. All made a discernible difference with the same arm and carts.
 
Synergy is always an important factor.

I have listened to a fair few phono stages but decided to buy a Tron 7 GT, I bought it with a ten day return period. Decided to keep it after the first track.

Allowed me to hear what my LP12 is truly capable of within: LP12/Aro/Armageddon => Tron 7 => iCoN pre => 300DR => SBL.

I was truly blown away.

Not cheap, even old and second hand, but worth every penny.
 
Phono stages vary, but exact setting up to the cartridge's requirements in 10X more important. Whatever you buy, make sure you can configure it to exactly what loading your cartridge needs to see and etc.
After that the changes are smal, except in MC matching and in discussions via valves vs SUT transformers and etc.
 
HifiDan said:
I then bought a brand new Naim Stageline and ran that out of the back of my Supernait 2. Sounded great but, it picked up every airborne signal going and had hum,
Paul Hindle said:
The Prefix was powered by my 52. In the context of my system I was looking at a Superline or Lejonklou entity. The cost of a used SL was similar to a new entity.
Paul Hindle said:
I bought a Supercap. And what a difference it made
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I went from K boards in my 52 after having boards in my 32.5 and 82. All good but suffered from hum and RFI on occasion. Tried S boards on advice but lost dynamics). I then had a K Prefix powered by the 52; good upgrade but still marred by RFI etc.. When I got the 552 I bought a Superline and Supercap.. Superline very finicky and (unbeknown to me for a year or two) caused hum in my N.A. Dais low-torque motor, causing unnecessary exchanges/new motors etc. with N.A. Only solved by getting a long belt and taking the motor as far back as poss. (DIY construction to deck table).
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It was only whn I changed to 912 EAR pre. with onboard stages that it became apparent that the Superline was responsible, yet moving it around /different shelves etc. previously as far as feasible hadn't worked. I knew the Superline didn't have filters in its design (for better dynamics?). Oddly enough, the dealer who'd brought his S'line round some months before simply couldn't get it to work without hum, but later I took the plunge with another anyway as it was the upgrade to the Prefix (so I thought).

I have two arms and it was a right pain to plug in and unplug with that wobbly chassis; likewise changing the bloody resistance plugs for different cart's. In fact it was functionally difficult to cope with on many aspects and with hindsight, it wasn't the bee's knees sonically that I thought it ought to be. However, that was with the 552, so the sheer superiority, both sonically and emotionally of the EAR couldn't be considered fair comparison. Brilliant oddball creation, the Superline, but flawed ergonomically and electrically, i.m.o.
 
lordmortlock said:
Morning @anuenlil

Having bought the Valab from you, and remembering your comments, I think you’d get on well with Aurorasounds Vida phono stage. A similar vibe to the Valab, but a bit more of everything.

The only other phonostage have owned that I would rank alongside the Vida is Art Audio’s Vinyl one. That has a larger, looser sound than the LCR units, but it’s wonderfully ‘live’ and organic. My unit was MM, which I used successfully with a number of different SUTs.
Click to expand...

l went from a Jez Arkless Turbo - which for the money sounds superb, then long story short went to The Art Audio Vinyl One Definitive Audio version( it had been on my hifi bucket list) and the improvement in sound is striking ( as it should be when costings are taken into account ) try to get a home loan of what you fancy- everyone hears things differently.
 
I agree about the Superline flaws. So many have had issues with hum etc. No doubt if you get it right, there is little to touch it but what a faff. Sticking with the Prefix is a compromise but I’m much happier with it. There are better phono stages around today but it most importantly sounds fantastic to me and integrates well with the rest of my system. I won’t be chasing the last nuance of better SQ, just listening to music is where I’ve got to.
 
Paul Hindle said:
No doubt if you get it right, there is little to touch it
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There's a lot to touch it i.mo. and I did get it right and within a highish end part Naim system.
Paul Hindle said:
There are better phono stages around today
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Indeed, and the antithesis of your first text above. :D Above a certain level, it's much to do with one's taste in presentation combined with one's kit and domestic situation. My only experience of having a proper stage in my system for a few weeks or more other than Naim (before the Superline) was the top LFD (made in Essex). The dullest thing I've ever heard from a cart ! I currently have on-board valved stages (2 x MM & MC) with T. de P.'s strange (to me) impedance/gain balancing selection but I don't think I could revert to s/state stages. Neither could I revert to 9" tonearms after having 12", but that's another story.
 
I think most well designed phono stages sound pretty similar . Once you have got reasonable RIAA accuracy , decent SnR and THD levels they should all sound the same as the recording .

What does conquer all is synergy , impedance ( resistive and capactance ) and gain all need to line up .
 
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