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Phono stages and diminishing returns?

I think current input MC phono stages, like the Dynavector ‘Dr T’ mode, and the Arkless GTI, are the way forward as they eliminate questions of cartridge loading. Which is one variable too many when you’ve also got to consider arm/cartridge matching.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
I think current input MC phono stages, like the Dynavector ‘Dr T’ mode, and the Arkless GTI, are the way forward as they eliminate questions of cartridge loading. Which is one variable too many when you’ve also got to consider arm/cartridge matching.
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Not that I'm remotely technical, but I can't see how synergistic properties of MC cart's like impedance loading can be avoided; with MM cart's it's more that of capacitance. If a stage can be considered to eliminate variations in loading, surely the only way is to design them to accommodate a wide range (of impedances, e.g.). This must be a compromise which, whilst allowing a wider range of cart's, doesn't quite hit the spot for any, except by accident.

Many MC cart's are rated as needing a 100 ohms loading; this is, of course, variable to an small extent, depending at least partly, I would think, on the internal impedance of that cart. I vaguely remember Linns (or maybe Lyra or even both) needing nearer 500 ohms and the K derivations of Naim boards/Prefix were, I think, 470. That's a big gap.

When I had my Superline and switched from Benz Ebony to K,Urushi or vice versa, I often couldn't understand why the sound was off. It was because I'd forgotten to change the loading plug from 200 to 100 ohms (or vice versa). Just 100 ohms and such an effect !

Is there really a magical electronic circuit which can eliminate loading? I doubt it or everybody would be onto it. Your two examples are not in the higher end sector, which may have a bearing, (either gimbal or unipivot ?).
 
I tried a few different stages on home demo and ended up settling on an Arkless standard for a while, which was amazing for the money. When I upgraded the TT I thought I ought to look at the phono stages again and go up a decent notch, so I borrowed a demo Aurorasound Vida from Guy at Puresound. That was quite a revelation - The Vida is absolutely lovely. Incredibly detailed but doesn't sound like it (if that makes any sense!) End game for me. Give Guy a shout if you fancy trying one, he's a very nice chap.
 
Phono stages do sound different/ better but yes, it is definitely diminishing returns - just like many other aspects of this 'hobby'...

Sometimes we might expect a wonder box to play totally different music from the same track, but hang on, all the notes are there in the same order after all!
 
Personally I’m keeping an eye out for a well priced P75 mk1/2. Been a couple through eBay recently ish at bargain prices. Looks competent and it’s adjustable for loading and does MC/MM.
 
Mike Reed said:
Not that I'm remotely technical, but I can't see how synergistic properties of MC cart's like impedance loading can be avoided; with MM cart's it's more that of capacitance. If a stage can be considered to eliminate variations in loading, surely the only way is to design them to accommodate a wide range (of impedances, e.g.). This must be a compromise which, whilst allowing a wider range of cart's, doesn't quite hit the spot for any, except by accident.

Many MC cart's are rated as needing a 100 ohms loading; this is, of course, variable to an small extent, depending at least partly, I would think, on the internal impedance of that cart. I vaguely remember Linns (or maybe Lyra or even both) needing nearer 500 ohms and the K derivations of Naim boards/Prefix were, I think, 470. That's a big gap.

When I had my Superline and switched from Benz Ebony to K,Urushi or vice versa, I often couldn't understand why the sound was off. It was because I'd forgotten to change the loading plug from 200 to 100 ohms (or vice versa). Just 100 ohms and such an effect !

Is there really a magical electronic circuit which can eliminate loading? I doubt it or everybody would be onto it. Your two examples are not in the higher end sector, which may have a bearing, (either gimbal or unipivot ?).
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why don't you try to google "transimpedance phono stage"
 
Mike Reed said:
Never knew of such a thing but the terminology alone would seem to suggest that it does what I thought. Shall do, though.
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no , cartridge looks into virtual short circuit and gain is set by the internal resistance of the cartridge-lower the resistance results in higher the gain
 
Dear all, thank you for the many replies to my query. Many people seem to feel that phonostages continue to improve audibly as you move beyond the £1500 price point, but quite a few people also suggest that this has to do with more elaborate options for finetuning resistance and/or capacitance (sometimes equated with "synergy") rather than with the intrinsic design of the phonostage. If so, some options like Tron, LFD MCT, or even Aurorasound Vida (at least in its basic form) would appear to be less rational options than classic contendors like Gold Note Ph10, Cyrus Signature, PS Audio Stellar, or Parasound JC3. I'll need to mull this over. In the meanwhile, I'm fortunate enough to be genuinely enjoying the Graham Slee.
 
Mike Reed said:
Is there really a magical electronic circuit which can eliminate loading? I doubt it or everybody would be onto it. Your two examples are not in the higher end sector, which may have a bearing, (either gimbal or unipivot ?).
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This is the operating mode for the CH Precision P1 and P10 phono stages. They don’t get any higher end than that.

NB: it only works for MC carts, so isn’t an option for stages that offer MM compatibility.
 
I'm really not a Slee fan, I have found everything I've encountered to be massively over priced for the performance they offered.

This was recently underlined when I tried a friends Graham Slee Era Gold MkV in my modest system.
The sound fell flat despite having the correct settings, compared to what you ask?
A modified MF XPLS !!! In my system the MF wiped the floor with the Slee.
A return match was set on my friends significantly higher end system, with an LP12/Ittok LV2/AT VL 740ML at the head.
It was a closer match, we agreed there was more detail coming through the the Slee but the MF had a better overall presentation.
At the price difference that's an appalling show from the Slee.
 
Against a standard XLPS I would bloody well hope so!
Mine has a proper twin rail DC outboard PSU (DIY), the internal rectification, regulation and splitter has been removed and a few minor changes/upgrades to the main circuit components.
 
early said:
Once you have got reasonable RIAA accuracy , decent SnR and THD levels they should all sound the same as the recording
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Well, measurement tell some of the story but there are other factors that we may or may not be aware of that contribute to the "sound".
 
cj66 said:
Against a standard XLPS I would bloody well hope so!
Mine has a proper twin rail DC outboard PSU (DIY), the internal regulation and splitter has been removed and a few minor changes/upgrades to the main circuit components.
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I'm trying to catch up with the argument. You appear to report that something that shares an outward resemblance to an MF-XLPS, and which probably came into roughly the same price range as an Era Gold V (taking into account inflation and modification costs), in some respects bettered the Era in a sufficiently revealing system. In that case, your evidence for the claim that Graham Slee products are "massively over priced for the performance they offered" is not anecdotal, but simply absent.
 
Whatever you hear will only be as "good" as the bottle-neck in your system - whatever is limiting what you perceive as good, and what you prefer may drive someone else nuts.

A very long time ago, I bought very expensive speakers. It made no real sense, but I did and it was 30 years ago, give or take.

I have changed amps, tonearms, cart's and phono amplification in steps, and heard differences with each and every change, not all to the better.
 
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