Parlour trick

[mattgbell]

What i find odd is (and this is not nessecarily aimed at you) is why i read regularly on here that some hear very little difference in pretty much anything, yet pay thousands for gear, my whole main system cost me £340 including cables & i hear differences in everything, quite large differences on occasion, doesn't add up why you would pay thousands on something when a few hundred would obviously do the job as the audible differences would be so small as to be insignificant,
either some are telling porkies or thay don't really believe what they post & say this to keep in with the norm on pfm, which equates to, as a general rule of thumb, from what i read regularly, all cables sound pretty much the same, mains cables make no difference whatsoever, amps are much of a muchness, cd players all sound the same & speakers are about the the only thing to change if you want to improve your system.

It's an odd place & considering the obvious intelligence here, makes no sense. How would any inteligent person pay thousands on hifi equipment if they hear very little difference between components, it's a silly waste of money & something i would equate to someone with very little intelligence or someone who is drawn in by nice shiny objects or marketing spiel.

I often get accused of such things which is odd considering what i own compared to many here who regularly claim such indifference to different compenents. Obviously, for some , it's all about the equipment rather than the music.

AFAIK nobody has said they don't hear differences between speakers or turntables etc. And I think everyone would agree that you need a power amp that's at least powerful enough to drive the speakers to the required volume without clipping.

On this basis a reasonable justification could be made for spending a lot of money.

 

[adamdea]

And the tests you linked to did produce results for audible distortion, which is not entirely surprising in a quickfire A/B switching test.

I can't understand what you mean by this. http://djcarlst.provide.net/abx_dist.htm is a link for ABXing distortion at 3% and 7%.
Is this not good enough?
The link I showed you also includes ABX Test Data for distinguishing between volume levels of 0.3dB.

The full list on the page I linked to in my previous post (eg of which links to another is

Capacitors, CD Players
DA Converters, Digital Delay
Distortion Filters, First Order
Filters, Fourth Order Interconnects,
Level Difference, Mini-Disc
Polarity Phono Cartridges
Phono PreAmps, Power Amplifiers,
Speakers, Speaker Wires
Tape Decks, Tape Generations,
Video Cables

As an aside I'm sure I've read on here that, scientifically speaking, the results are only statistically significant if they show correlation to the 95th percentile, ie 95% positive, which none of the tests you link to managed to achieve.

No.
what has to be shown is that the probability of the result being achieved by guessing has to be less than 5% in a single tail test. This does not mean getting it right 95% of the time. And every single one of the results I posted does this (where ascribed as being a "different" result ie positive identification) because it is a fundamental principle of ABX testing.
Are you sure you don't want to spend some time reading about this stuff? You might find that many of the things which you claim are not known or not understood are well known and well understood.

I do not mean this in a didactic spirit: I'm a total amateur; I'm interested; I like finding out about it. I would like to learn more, although I suspect that my bank manager would think otherwise.

Nevertheless, my wider point is that there are some effects which are not so susceptible to quickfire A/B switching. My experience is that things like DAC filters, speaker cables, interconnects (and, yes, mains cables), supports, tonearms and similar affect the performance in ways which are most obviously heard in the realms of timing and dynamics. These effects are not slap-you-in-the-face obvious, and tend to lead (in my experience) to longer-term satisfaction. I doubt I'd pick them up in a rapid switching A/B dem of a short snatch of music, but I'm equally sure in my own mind that the differences are not illusory.

An example: last year I borrowed a better tonearm and, for a while, I found myself revisiting my vinyl collection and ignoring my CD player. When I returned the tonearm to its rightful owner and refitted my own, I played two sides of an LP, checked it was really fitted correctly, tried again and then didn't touch the turntable for about three weeks. That wasn't deliberate, I just wasn't drawn to play music on it, in the slightest. I'm equally sure that I wouldn't have been able to pick out the tonearms in a quickfire A/B dem.

Autodiagnosis as to the cause of one's preferences is pretty futile :Le cœur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point

In any event, you may very well find that you could tell the difference between the tonearms using a rapid switching test. Without some sort of structured test who knows? ABX testing is quite sensitive. I've ABXed things I didn't think I could. The only reason why it is has acquired a reputation for not begin able to detect things is because there are so many things which people imagine (wrongly) that they can distinguish. That does not mean that they can't distinguish quite sensitively between sounds which have audible differences. It does mean that personal conviction about what does and does not sound different is unreliable.

Does that mean that we have to make consumer choices based on rapid A/B or ABX tests? No.

 

[h.g.]

The discussion has only reached sites the size of pfm because of the C&D order, not because of the article itself. The phrase 'do not feed the energy monster' is one of the most useful to have in mind when running any internet venture.

If you catch it early enough then there is a blip and it dies away. It looks like Nordost have probably been successful in achieving this. So long as it remains as a few threads on audiophile forums which will soon scroll off the first page then the adverse effect is negligible and well worth the price of a few dollars for a lawyer's letter. If it is picked up by publications with a wider audience then it will be more damaging but without evidence and the company having demonstrated it will defend it's interests why would a reputable publication do this?

Note it doesn't matter one iota what did or did not happen the process to defend Nordost's reputation would be the same. Although if they were not helping things along I presume there would be more possibility of them taking the blogger to court. Given the demo was to show the audible benefits of expensive power cables this runs the risk of seriously back-firing and generating lots of adverse publicity.

 

[Lee T]

I venture to suggest you still have much to learn about human beings. Perhaps then you might either understand or treat them with a greater tolerance and resist the urge to judge them.

Some people hear differences in cables that are worth mentioning, others (the majority of the human race) don't.

Want to talk about why cables sound different?

You have obviously missed the point or havn't read the post clearly.

Can you explain to me why someone would spend 5 grand on a hifi system if they hear little difference in components,

I'm not talking cables, read through the threads on here & posts on here, very few hear much of a difference in anything, why pay the money.

FWIW, my cables cost me £40 in total, not exactly extravagant spending on fancy cables.

 

[Lee T]

AFAIK nobody has said they don't hear differences between speakers or turntables etc. And I think everyone would agree that you need a power amp that's at least powerful enough to drive the speakers to the required volume without clipping.

On this basis a reasonable justification could be made for spending a lot of money.

Plenty of cheap amps capable of driving large power hungry speakers,

There are plenty on pfm who do claim to hear very little difference in many things hifi related yet spend silly money, to me, on equipment.

 

[whatsnext]

You have obviously missed the point or havn't read the post clearly.

Can you explain to me why someone would spend 5 grand on a hifi system if they hear little difference in components,

I'm not talking cables, read through the threads on here & posts on here, very few hear much of a difference in anything, why pay the money.

FWIW, my cables cost me £40 in total, not exactly extravogant spending on fancy cables.

Valhalla 2 Power Cords set the same benchmark standard in their category as the other Valhalla cables do in theirs. But thanks to the application of our latest Dual Mono-Filament technology they enjoy an even bigger margin of performance over the competition. The cable consists of 7 solid silver plated 16 AWG OFC conductors, each suspended in a Dual Mono-Filament matrix. The separate solid core conductors eliminate strand interaction, hot spots, and carbonization, which can occur in stranded cables. Unlike conventional power cables, which have propagation speeds that are less than 50% the speed of light, the Valhalla 2 Reference Power Cord has a speed of 91 % the speed of light. Extruded FEP insulation is superior to all other materials. It has very low signal loss and high thermal efficiency, causing it to dissipate heat quickly. The use of FEP in a Dual Mono-Filament construction means that power is transferred more effectively, while the low resistance of the cable keeps power loss extremely low. The result... truly superb sound quality.

£3,799.99

 

[mattgbell]

So you accept that a case can be made for spending a lot of money on speakers, turntables etc. But you want to focus on amps. OK.

Plenty of cheap amps capable of driving large power hungry speakers,

Show me a cheap amp that'll drive a pair of big Martin Logans without clipping or activating its protection circuits, and which isn't fan cooled. You'll need about 500WPC for that.

There are plenty on pfm who do claim to hear very little difference in many things hifi related yet spend silly money, to me, on equipment.

I think you're confusing two things:
1. people spend what seems to you 'silly money' on hifi. Fine: but remember that other people have different priorities from you. Who are you to tell other people what their priorities in life should be?
2. there's no point in spending big money on things that don't make a difference: well yes, we agree on that, but we've also agreed that speakers, turntables etc DO make a difference. Oh and you need an amp powerful enough to drive your speakers (see above).

EDIT: the amp will need to be reliable as well.

 

[adamdea]

On a more trivial level, why would Nordost actively choose an amplifier that broadcast the volume level to the audience in inch-high numbers if it were trying to hide raising the volume level? Nordost could have access to any amp, including those that don't have a large volume display.

I suspect that sometimes in the rush to burn a witch, the mob forgets to check if she weighs more than a duck.

Alan I'm in a bit of quandry here as I expect that Tony would not want to have what he regards as a potentially defamatory statement repeated on his website.

However surely you must remember what it was that Dr Aix actually posted. The core allegation was one which would be absolutely consistent with the use of an amplifier which had a volume display, wouldn't it? I may be wrong about this but I would have thought that such a device shows the volume of the device (ie attenuation from max) not the volume of the source input or the absolute value of the output(?)

 

[Lee T]

So you accept that a case can be made for spending a lot of money on speakers, turntables etc. But you want to focus on amps. OK.

Show me a cheap amp that'll drive a pair of big Martin Logans without clipping or activating its protection circuits, and which isn't fan cooled. You'll need about 500WPC for that.


I think you're confusing two things:
1. people spend what seems to you 'silly money' on hifi. Fine: but remember that other people have different priorities from you. Who are you to tell other people what their priorities in life should be?
2. there's no point in spending big money on things that don't make a difference: well yes, we agree on that, but we've also agreed that speakers, turntables etc DO make a difference. Oh and you need an amp powerful enough to drive your speakers (see above).

EDIT: the amp will need to be reliable as well.

I get told what my priorities should be on a regular basis on here as do others, i would not think about telling anyone what to spend on hifi but my question is relevant to those who claim to hear very little difference in hifi equipment, i have seen many here, not you, this isn't pointed at anyone in particular just from posts i have read & threads i have been part of, i cannot see any sense spending thousands, it's how i see it, if you hear little difference, there are plenty of reliable, reasonably cheap amplifiers around that would be, to quote a well know member "fit for purpose"

I understand someone may need to spend more if they need 500 wpc, but let's face it, not many do & still spend lot's on something they regualarly post as being much of a muchness, i have read many times from those who claim to hear little difference, go out & spend thousands on an average powered amp, which goes against your logic.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

Y
Can you explain to me why someone would spend 5 grand on a hifi system if they hear little difference in components,
.

To answer that we need to realise that the word "components" covers a vast range of different types of thing.

I can often hear the differences between loudspeakers. Long ago in a Galaxy far away (i.e. London) I heard the Quad ESL-63s for the first time right after being expected to listen to a pair of Linn Isobariks of the period. Chalk and cheese. In the same demo I heard two different amps driving the Isobariks, and was satisfied that I could hear a difference - and indeed, think I may know why.

When doing some tests years ago before modifying a Quad 34 I also found I could hear changes in the stereo imaging. This was far more subtle. But again in the end I think I know why this was happening.

I can also hear a difference, I think, if I move my head a few inches, again for reasons that seem to have a perfectly well understood reason.

Yet dispite all that I seem not to hear the 'obvious' differences people say they hear when changing cables. With some specific exception cases like a change of cables for a phono input altering the loading on the cartridge.

In addition, in cases where I *have* been able to investigate claims I've tended to find that the 'explanations' have flaws.

So I'm left wondering what's going on. The problem being that if people who say they *can* hear said differences would prefer to argue rather than engage in some experiments designed to check, I can't get any further.

So we get stuck in an eternal loop of dispute because those who make the claims generally aren't willing to put them to a test that might allow us to learn more. I can't do it, because I generally don't hear what it claimed, so my 'failure' would prove nothing at all. Hence this will continue until people get bored or some of those who are convinced they can hear the effects are willing to put their belief to a suitable test.

Its a shame because I'd love to learn more about it *and* see if we could find real benefits for all, for a few pence rather than thousands of pounds.

 

[h.g.]

Its a shame because I'd love to learn more about it *and* see if we could find real benefits for all, for a few pence rather than thousands of pounds.

For all? Will it benefit the current cable companies, their employees, the audiophiles that believe in cables, etc...?

 

[adamdea]

I get told what my priorities should be on a regular basis on here as do others, i would not think about telling anyone what to spend on hifi but my question is relevant to those who claim to hear very little difference in hifi equipment, i have seen many here, not you, this isn't pointed at anyone in particular just from posts i have read & threads i have been part of, i cannot see any sense spending thousands, it's how i see it, if you hear little difference, there are plenty of reliable, reasonably cheap amplifiers around that would be, to quote a well know member "fit for purpose"

I probably fall into this category of irrational behaviour because i am signed up to the F-dac and even the detox even though I'm pretty doubtful that they will make a tremendous sonic difference. But I'm genuinely interested in the project in JW's thinking and sort of joining in. Also the sheer versatility is exciting. You have a point: it is a bit daft of me.

 

[BE718]

Why? Why should they pander to unsubstantiated accusations from every random bloke on the internet? Personally I'd have just ignored it entirely. The internet is rammed full of unsubstantiated opinion, slurs and accusations from all kinds of people with every agenda conceivable, so why shine a spotlight on one largely irrelevant person's opinion even if they knew he was lying (I'm not saying he is, but I'd expect Nordorst to hold that view if they were potentially gambling on a court case)? The discussion has only reached sites the size of pfm because of the C&D order, not because of the article itself. The phrase 'do not feed the energy monster' is one of the most useful to have in mind when running any internet venture.

Seriously? Nordorst obviously thought it serious enough to get lawyers involved, they certainly didnt ignore it, but their actions just fuelled the fire.

Its marketing stupidity even if they are honest.

I guarantee they wont perform an independently scrutinised test, which to me speaks volumes. Even if they are not "fixing " the demos it just shows me that they dont have the faith in their mains cable to do anything noticeable under controlled conditions.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

For all? Will it benefit the current cable companies, their employees, the audiophiles that believe in cables, etc...?

Maybe not the companies. If we could find out to provide the same benefits at much lower costs then the free market they are currently benefiting from would pressure them to make and sell at a low price, and they'd have to compensate by shifting more items. But how they react to a change in the market would be for them to decide. Competition, innit? 8-]

So the employees might stay employed, and many more audiophiles might get the benefits because the cost (and hence also the risk of dissapointment) would be much lower, thus affordable.

I'm assuming that people who buy cables because they feel they sound better *would* prefer it if they were cheaper, though.

*And* we might know what the hell was *really* going on. Which I've personally always had an interest in.

People still sell Lamborgini's, though. I have no axe to grind there, as I don't have a car. 8-]

 

[Werner]

I'm assuming that people who buy cables because they feel they sound better *would* prefer it if they were cheaper, though.

I think that at the top end of the market the exact opposite is true.

 

[adamdea]

I think that at the top end of the market the exact opposite is true.

It certainly would explain the obsession with fancy and conspicuously expensive metals in high end cables. What has silver, or for that matter 5 nines copper got to do with any of it, really? Strange isn't it that fancy cables so often seem to follow what one might (without any technical consideration) just assume to be better.

I would love it if Jim's vision corresponded with commercial reality. What depresses me quite often is that thought that there may be some truth and the nonsense that amounts to a good portion of the industry. But the grain of truth would be really difficult to get at because of the swathe of false positives hype, and nonsense. Perhaps some people with acute hearing and kit with 80Khz bandwidth can hear the difference between 24/96 and 24/192 on some program material. But who can tell, since the difference can be heard by people with 14khz hearing limit through quad esls listening to old analog recordings (possibly in the next room).

Having followed Dr Aix for several years, I suspect that this has gradually gnawed away at him.

 

[Tony L]

I guarantee they wont perform an independently scrutinised test, which to me speaks volumes. Even if they are not "fixing " the demos it just shows me that they dont have the faith in their mains cable to do anything noticeable under controlled conditions.

You seem governed entirely by your entrenched view that no AB dem of a mains lead can possibly be legitimate, not even one with a huge great public display of the volume level etc. I very much doubt anyone could provide a test that could overcome your incredible degree of expectation bias short of a full blind ABX (i.e. not telling you it was even a cable being demmed as that would trigger your bias). This is just not how the audio community works as the overwhelming majority of audiophiles simply do not feel comfortable in such an alien environment, nor wish to be tested by wannabe scientists over something as trivial as a purchasing decision. You prefer to shout accusations of 'fixing' etc than conceed there may actually be a difference that some people may be able to hear. As such I can't understand all the recursive huff and puff as neither side is ever going to accept the other's perspective.

 

[whatsnext]

Nordost also adopted a unique approach to sales, openly demonstrating the performance of their products against the competition. This confidence was well placed and the strategy proved a sure-fire winner, the legendary Nordost cable demos remaining high on the must-hear list for audiophiles attending hi-fi shows around the world.

I guess you hear demonstrated the Nordost mains cable passing electricity at 90% the speed of light as opposed to the competition at 50%.

 

[radamel]

You seem governed entirely by your entrenched view that no AB dem of a mains lead can possibly be legitimate, not even one with a huge great public display of the volume level etc. I very much doubt anyone could provide a test that could overcome your incredible degree of expectation bias short of a full blind ABX (i.e. not telling you it was even a cable being demmed as that would trigger your bias). This is just not how the audio community works as the overwhelming majority of audiophiles simply do not feel comfortable in such an alien environment, nor wish to be tested by wannabe scientists over something as trivial as a purchasing decision. You prefer to shout accusations of 'fixing' etc than conceed there may actually be a difference that some people may be able to hear. As such I can't understand all the recursive huff and puff as neither side is ever going to accept the other's perspective.

+1.

 

[Tony L]

+1.

FWIW I may have worded that a little more strongly than I intended. Reading it back it looks a little aggressive, which was not intended. I also perhaps need to state that I am certainly not arguing for Nordost here, my experience of that company is limited to trying one interconnect way back in the 90s which a friend owned or had borrowed from somewhere. I remember I didn't like it, I felt it sounded too bright/cold in my system compared to whatever I was using (probably DIY Naim Aro arm cable at that point). Aside from that I have zero dog in the race. I'm just challenging bias really, just the opposite bias to which is normally challenged!

PS I said upthread that I'd walked out of a Nordorst dem as I didn't especially like the sound, I think that is incorrect. Thinking back I'm pretty sure it was a spike/cone-like product, which may well have been Nordost-related, hence the confusion.