John Phillips
pfm Member
When I changed jobs from semiconductor R&D to digital audio R&D (circa 1989) their published papers were prominent amongst the essential reading material I assembled to educate myself in a new subject.
Pace, rhythm and timing. What do these terms mean to you with respect to hifi?
- Thread starter Nic Robinson
- Start date
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
FWIW I was also quite impressed by Lipshitz's examination of DSD/SACD. IIRC he got flak for questioning its use for original recording or archiving because of its inherent snags.
Interestingly enough the prat-talk is usually about gear almost exclusively: musical cd-players, loudspeakers having "insight", agile amplifiers etc. One very quickly gets the impression that the equipment is used intentionally as an effects box to make music interesting enough to be listened to instead of letting the music speak for itself.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Quite the reverse, I’d say. It’s about equipment that does indeed let the music speak for itself, rather than equipment that fails to deliver all aspects of the musical message.
Tigerjones
Bagpuss
Let’s just admit that no one has the slightest clue.
Tony L
Administrator
Interestingly enough a person who has made a whole 3 of his 615 posts in the music room would make this arbitrary judgment on others.
As a noise and vibration research engineer back in the day I noticed going back many years most, if not all, the "tweaks" recommended to improve PRaT reduced internal damping of mechanical parts in the turntable, arm and speakers. FWIW.
No idea what it could be in electronics.
No idea what it could be in electronics.
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
PRAT is bolleaux.
david ellwood
Kirabosi Kognoscente
People who can’t hear PRaT are Deafasfeaux.
Dozey
Air guitar member
There is also no reason to assume ethernet cables can't change the sound, especially when making an experimental observation with one's ears is so easy to do.
onlyconnect
pfm Member
On the contrary there is a reason to assume that. Further, "making an experimental observation with one's ears" is far from easy. Needs an assistant and blind testing otherwise pointless other than for grossly different sonic changes.
Tim
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
The electronic equivalent might be something like giving an amp a (relatively) high output impedance over at least some part of its frequency range. Thus facilitating it interacting with its load to give a tailored response that wasn't flat.
narabdela
who?
Another A over T attempt at reasoning. Do the principles of Formal Logic not apply on Hi-Fi forums?
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
The principles of logic, formal or otherwise, don’t apply on any internet social media platform. I thought everybody knew that?
russel
./_dazed_and_confused
Figures, adding a series resistor to an amplifier output reduces the damping factor and gives it a less controlled sound that can sound a bit more “Live”, guess which amplifier manufacturer use a resistor, or used to, in series with the output.
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
Forgive me if I conveyed the wrong impression in my quest for brevity.
I was of course referring to the existence or otherwise of PRaT in audio components.Thus yours is of course the correct answer to the wrong question, especially when coming from a confirmed Linn acolyte, and even more especially considering that PRaT only appears to have emerged as a claimed issue in hi fi equipment in recent decades. Few would, I think claim that PRaT does not exist in music. Whether individuals can hear it is of course moot, but in my own experience some place more emphasis on what they think constitues PRaT than do others. Also, I know many people who do not seem to respond to any music which majors on melody, as opposed to some sort of propulsive beat or rhythm.. but I will posit that as an example of taste, rather than perception.
Quite evidently, pace, rhythm and timing are all part of the fabric of music. It follows that those elements should be reproduced as faithfully as is technically achieveable by the hi-fi system. However, the idea that some components 'have PRaT', whilst others don't, is IMHO, and as I said above.. bolleaux. All of those elements are reproduced electronically, within usually tin boxes full of bits. The speed of electrical transmission AIUI, is the same as that of light. I.E. 186000 miles per second. It is I believe true that audio signal transmission 'speed' through wires varies somewhat according to frequency. This will in theory produce some 'smearing' of the signal, but only, AIUI, over considerable cable lengths. It also appears to be a function of physical laws relating to signal transmission:frequency, so, apart from using the best available wires/dielectrics etc.. even the best audio designers are powerless against this physical certainty.
Which brings me to my long held conclusion that what is marketed as, or masquerades as 'PRaT', in audio components, is simply a designed in frequency response which creates leading edge emphasis, maybe a bit of selective HF boost, and an emphasis on upper bass... which can be perceived to represent PRaT, but which is nothing of the sort.