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Pace, rhythm and timing. What do these terms mean to you with respect to hifi?

Nope, please read again.
Indeed. It cannot be measured or demonstrated to exist at all. It cannot be described or communicated to anyone else. You can only "get it" or "not get it". IOW, it is very much like a mystical experience, part of a well known quasi-religious audiophile cult.
You say it cannot be measured or demonstrated to exist. From that, the clear inference to be drawn is that you are arguing it doesn’t exist. That inference is consistent with your line more recently on this thread that proper evidence is required before things can be taken seriously.
 
You say it cannot be measured or demonstrated to exist. From that, the clear inference to be drawn is that you are arguing it doesn’t exist. That inference is consistent with your line more recently on this thread that proper evidence is required before things can be taken seriously.
No, you are reading my position deliberately wrong.
 
That's a bold claim. I'm not 'deliberately' reading it wrong. I may have 'inadvertently' read it wrong, but if that isn't the inference you wanted people to draw from post #7, what did you mean, and how is it not consistent with what you say at post #117 about requiring evidence?
 
One would have to do a survey of DBTs done on speakers by the known researchers over the years, extract a subset of those highly rated for low frequency performance and examine their objective performance. I would expect that a set of performance metrics would be evident that then can be hypothesized to be associated with a phenomena coloquially known as PRaT.

Someone smart may have already done that...decades ago :)
 
One would have to do a survey of DBTs done on speakers by the known researchers over the years, extract a subset of those highly rated for low frequency performance and examine their objective performance. I would expect that a set of performance metrics would be evident that then can be hypothesized to be associated with a phenomena coloquially known as PRaT.

Someone smart may have already done that...decades ago :)

Only speakers?

And how many tests are required for a statistically significant sample?
 
You trust the engineers who construct houses, cars, aeroplanes, bridges, and so on. Why do you refuse to extend the same trust to the engineers who design audio devices? As an engineer, I find your attitude offensive.
That’s an interesting perspective. If a team of audio engineers were state funded not-for-profit multi-political-party endorsed with for example an agenda of identifying the best sound in all aspects of the audio chain (instruments, mastering, storage and playback medium, audio components, topology, efficiency, value, acoustics, connections etc) to give us a menu of smart recommendations for different budgets and listening environments I would like to trust them. However, a commercial company picking the science to suit the products it is trying to sell for profit, hmm, I think we then become selective as to who we might trust.

Another example, I am supposed to trust my GP or medical teams as they have no vested interest beyond best procedures and care, however becoming aware of how pharmaceutical companies fund labs, research and medicines adds an element of mistrust in no matter what science they try to assure me of.

But I guess if they are testing my PR&T I will trust they’re checking my cognitive responses, coordination or heart in my best interests :)
 
Only speakers?

And how many tests are required for a statistically significant sample?
The speaker is the usual suspect here.

Correctly implemented DBTs would have statistically significant number of trials and amplification that is capable of driving the test speakers.

And the known authorities that have done this research have tested many speakers over time.

So there is plenty of data for interested parties to mine.
 
That’s an interesting perspective. If a team of audio engineers were state funded not-for-profit multi-political-party endorsed with for example an agenda of identifying the best sound in all aspects of the audio chain (instruments, mastering, storage and playback medium, audio components, topology, efficiency, value, acoustics, connections etc) to give us a menu of smart recommendations for different budgets and listening environments I would like to trust them. However, a commercial company picking the science to suit the products it is trying to sell for profit, hmm, I think we then become selective as to who we might trust.
Many universities have audio departments, you know. Besides, most of the relevant engineering principles are not specific to audio. You're right, of course, that someone who wants to sell you something should be met with some scepticism. However, most of the spokesmen for audio voodoo companies have no engineering credentials. They are the equivalent of (used) car salesmen. If a mechanical engineer working on engine design at, say, BMW tells me that some voodoo fuel additive doesn't increase the torque, or whatever, I'd be inclined to believe them. After all, they probably know a lot more about engines than I do, and they'd have nothing to gain by lying. Am I making sense? Why should audio matters be treated differently, any claim made by anyone assumed to be true, no matter how ridiculous?
 
That's a bold claim. I'm not 'deliberately' reading it wrong. I may have 'inadvertently' read it wrong, but if that isn't the inference you wanted people to draw from post #7, what did you mean, and how is it not consistent with what you say at post #117 about requiring evidence?
Surely you have heard "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"? If I stated that prat "cannot exist" I would have to prove a negative claim of existence. This is entirely different from stating that we do not have reason to believe prat exists. This in no way contradicts post #7 and #117.
 
Mansr,

Many universities have audio departments, you know.

The university where I work has two audio guys — John Vanderkooy of the Department of Physics and Stanley Lipshitz of the Department of Applied Mathematics — but I think they’ve retired.

Are they well known outside Canada?

joe
 
Surely you have heard "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"? If I stated that prat "cannot exist" I would have to prove a negative claim of existence. This is entirely different from stating that we do not have reason to believe prat exists. This in no way contradicts post #7 and #117.
We’ll, if you’re going to resort to sophistry to defend your argument, I’ll leave you to it.
 
The speaker is the usual suspect here.

For PRAT? Surely this is a quality for which every component in the system contributes?



to the gallery:

Which system would be more pratty:

(1) LP12 rig, NAC 32.5-HiCap-NAP 160 with Spendor BC-1s

- or -

(2) SOTA Sapphire (with, say, a Grado Signature 8), Audio Research SP3-A-1, Audio Research D-76A with Briks (or DBLs)?
 
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Yank,

This feels like one of those thought experiments where Scotty and R2D2 switch places. Both can fix things, both are a bit grumpy, both are useful when your ship is under attack and it needs a quick makeshift repair.

But would you be better off with Scotty on the Falcon or R2D2 on the ship? Talk about your conundrums.

Joe
 
For PRAT? Surely this is a quality for which every component in the system contributes?



to the gallery:

Which system would be more pratty:

(1) LP12 rig, NAP 32.5-HiCap-NAC160 with Spendor BC-1s

- or -

(2) SOTA Sapphire (with, say, a Grado Signature 8), Audio Research SP3-A-1, Audio Research D-76A with Briks (or DBLs)?


IME (1) would have more PRaT. Source first, then amp then speakers. All equipment should be mounted on spikes on lightweight tables/stands. Always worked for me.
 
For PRAT? Surely this is a quality for which every component in the system contributes?



to the gallery:

Which system would be more pratty:

(1) LP12 rig, NAP 32.5-HiCap-NAC160 with Spendor BC-1s

- or -

(2) SOTA Sapphire (with, say, a Grado Signature 8), Audio Research SP3-A-1, Audio Research D-76A with Briks (or DBLs)?
I don't know.

However, speakers have the largest available actual DBT research database (I think) and are understood to have qualities at least applicable to the discussed phenomena.

So if one is interested in looking over others' already completed work, it's a great place to start.

However, in most of these threads, people seem more interested in discussing the meaning of science instead of doing an AES publication search :)

https://www.aes.org/images/e-lib/thumbnails/2/6/267_full.png

https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/conventions/?elib=11289

https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/journal/?ID=782
 
It means Naim's marketing department has been surfing on a shamelessly usurped slogan to entice noobies into believing...
 
Mansr,



The university where I work has two audio guys — John Vanderkooy of the Department of Physics and Stanley Lipshitz of the Department of Applied Mathematics — but I think they’ve retired.

Are they well known outside Canada?

joe

Certainly well known and regarded by me!
 


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