Pace, rhythm and timing. What do these terms mean to you with respect to hifi?

[Robn]

On Friday evening we played Daft Punk's Discovery in my garden for our first post CV19 record club return.

Using SBT/2Qute DAC, Exposure 21/18S into well supported Kef 104/2s everybody was shocked how good this sounded for PRAT and pinpoint 3D imaging. I can only attribute this to the lack of reflections, I've used the same kit indoors and it sounds great but being outdoors in open space raised it to a different level.

 

[RoA]

When? How were the effects of jitter demonstrated?


Without proper evidence no one will or should trust you. Sorry, this is how things work in the real world.

http://audio-probe.com/en/documentation/clock-jitter-and-audio-quality/?ckattempt=1

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/is-jitter-audible.3235/

That is only one (two) examples/opinions that Jitter can be audible and it is not even at a level some badly engineered (perhaps I should say ... deliberately badly engineered as in case of the KI Signature player) hifi components measure.

Many manufacturers have recognised Jitter as a very real issue since and invested time and resources to reduce it to inaudible levels.

Here is a good read about Jitter, it's eradication over time (and the inability to agree over its manifestation in Audio)

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...igital-audio-jitter-fundamentals-part-2.1926/

 

[Rosie]

I'm late to this and to be honest I've not read the whole tread .
as for PRAT my take on this is Pace Rhythm and Timbre when describing Hi Fi equipment rather than music
Does it have a propulsive quality , Pace .
Does it have a grove , Rhythm .
And finally is it interesting to listen to is there a discernible quality and texture to the music .Timbre

 

[adamdea]

I think this is perhaps missing point. If a person reasons in a rational scientific way and assigns conventional meanings to the words involved then obviously any competent or semi-competent amplifier will not be audibly changing the arrival time of different parts of the signal. People that believe in marketing like PRAT do not and cannot think in a rational scientific manner like this. And why should they if they don't want to given it is a hobby involving luxury goods?

Most seem to have faith in a brand or some aspect of audiophile belief and are looking for plausible (to them!) support for it. The key thing is that the faith comes first and the support after if it can be made to fit otherwise it is discarded or ignored. PRAT can provide this because it lacks meaning in itself but is associated with positive things onto which one can project for those that can think in this way. It is no different to many other things like brexit, homeopathy, climate change denial, populism, etc... which supporters associate with good things despite an absence of evidence.

Perhaps slightly more specifically: pace rhythm and timing are musical properties which you become very aware of when you are excited by listening to music. There are a variety of reasons why you become particularly aware of them on some occasions when you listen to a performance and not on others. It would be far -fetched to say that this would never have anything to do with the listening kit, but what unites people with a keen interest in audio equipment is a tendency to over estimate the extent to which the kit is responsible and hence to consider it appropriate to describe this experience as an inherent characteristic of the kit. That's basically what this hobby is about.

 

[S-Man]

My first realisation of PRaT or whatever you want to call it was in my early days of hifi. I had a sondek and some KEF Codas with homemade amps.
I upgraded the Codas to ES14s and was startled to hear how a particular drum roll was much clearer on the ES14s. The KEFs blurred it into a more continuous noise.
It was easy to hear and very repeatable!

30 years on I have speakers with superb measured LF performance. The differentiation of bass, drums and low frequency pitch is much better than most systems at any price. However, it is still vital to get all the higher frequencies properly integrated to achieve great sound. But getting the bass right (or doing without it) is fundamental to good PRaT.
Based on what I heard at the Munich show, "hi-end" is all about quantity not quality and there were very few systems there that seemed to put PRaT on their agenda!

 

[Octavian]

http://audio-probe.com/en/documentation/clock-jitter-and-audio-quality/?ckattempt=1

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/is-jitter-audible.3235/

That is only one (two) examples/opinions that Jitter can be audible and it is not even at a level some badly engineered (perhaps I should say ... deliberately badly engineered as in case of the KI Signature player) hifi components measure.

But still utterly scant evidence of its audibility in hifi equipment.

Many manufacturers have recognised Jitter as a very real issue since and invested time and resources to reduce it to inaudible levels.

Of course. In order to sell a solution a problem must be invented (or blown out of all proportion).

 

[RoA]

There are many more measurement approach articles about but if you don't believe that Jitter in it's different origins can affect SQ ... Good for you.

Basically you don't have to move past 1982 when looking for a digital source. Neat

 

[AndyU]

It can't/won't obviously, but to go back to the analogy with playing a guitar, if you don't damp the strings at the correct time, then the then strings you have just played will continue to drone when you play another & that has a critical impact on the sound of the instrument. Similarly, when you reproduce music on your home stereo, it has to be able to start & stop correctly, else the sound will lack impact & the timing aspect will be muddled; it's so obvious that I am surprised that we need to have a debate about it!

That’s nothing to do with rhythm. Again, can anyone explain how a speaker can affect rhythm? How can one speaker be more rhythmic than another?

 

[mansr]

That’s nothing to do with rhythm. Again, can anyone explain how a speaker can affect rhythm? How can one speaker be more rhythmic than another?

 

[Steve 57]

That’s nothing to do with rhythm. Again, can anyone explain how a speaker can affect rhythm? How can one speaker be more rhythmic than another?

Quite easy. It's a combination if resolution of the loudspeaker which is variable.
And there's the combination of back emf + amplifier feedback which adds an extra music related signal to the original music signal.. which in turn usually changes the music slightly, but nearly always audibly.

 

[h.g.]

I'm late to this and to be honest I've not read the whole tread .
as for PRAT my take on this is Pace Rhythm and Timbre when describing Hi Fi equipment rather than music
Does it have a propulsive quality , Pace .
Does it have a grove , Rhythm .
And finally is it interesting to listen to is there a discernible quality and texture to the music .Timbre

I have only ever seen the T stand for Timing and a very brief google failed to find timbre in the PRAT context. Can I ask where you saw Timbre?

 

[Joe Hutch]

In the forest?

 

[AndyU]

Quite easy. It's a combination if resolution of the loudspeaker which is variable.
And there's the combination of back emf + amplifier feedback which adds an extra music related signal to the original music signal.. which in turn usually changes the music slightly, but nearly always audibly.

But what has that got to do with rhythm? How does amplifier feedback and back emf affect rhythm, or the sense of it? Does it add a beat? Does it change the accents? Does it syncopate? I’m pretty sure that any vaguely proficient musician could reliably identify rhythm over a mobile phone.

 

[AndyU]

I have only ever seen the T stand for Timing and a very brief google failed to find timbre in the PRAT context. Can I ask where you saw Timbre?

Timbre is precisely the quality that speakers praised for the PRaT cannot transduce. Customer: “Gosh, they are coloured, it sounds like she is singing in a dustbin”. Salesman: “But listen to the timing” (taps his foot).

 

[david ellwood]

I am often given to wonder if some people just enjoy arguing for the sake of it, I really struggle to imagine that these people are so profoundly deaf as to hear no musical differences between components.

 

[Rosie]

I have only ever seen the T stand for Timing and a very brief google failed to find timbre in the PRAT context. Can I ask where you saw Timbre?

I claim no originality I think it was hi Fi reviewer Roy Gregory who used fraise first , the original poster asked what does PRAT Pace Rhythm and Timing mean to you . I rather like Pace Rhythm and Timbre since Rhythm and timing are very closely related and Timbre is under rated IMHO

 

[Darren L]

I am often given to wonder if some people just enjoy arguing for the sake of it.

Yep, that certainly appears to be the case especially where Linn and Naim components are the subject of debate.

 

[AndyU]

I am often given to wonder if some people just enjoy arguing for the sake of it, I really struggle to imagine that these people are so profoundly deaf as to hear no musical differences between components.

I hear plenty of difference between components. I have never heard a component that changed or affected the rhythm of a piece of music. You are just evading the question. How does a speaker affect the rhythm of music? Can something be a waltz on one speaker and a march on another? Does Dave Brubecks “Take Five” on one speaker become “Take Seven” on another? Give me an example of two speakers that convey the same piece of music with differing rhythms. And, just in case I am wasting my time trying to understand what you are talking about, what do you think rhythm is?

 

[herb]

I am often given to wonder if some people just enjoy arguing for the sake of it, I really struggle to imagine that these people are so profoundly deaf as to hear no musical differences between components.

Arguing appears to be a prefrontal cortex ego game.

 

[chartz]

On Friday evening we played Daft Punk's Discovery in my garden for our first post CV19 record club return.

Using SBT/2Qute DAC, Exposure 21/18S into well supported Kef 104/2s everybody was shocked how good this sounded for PRAT and pinpoint 3D imaging. I can only attribute this to the lack of reflections, I've used the same kit indoors and it sounds great but being outdoors in open space raised it to a different level.

Only, Daft Punk is not really music, is it?