Tony L
Administrator
If that is the case they have taken even a single penny in government furlough grants over the covid period that could only be viewed as serious fraud IMHO.
P&O Ferries Scandal
- Thread starter gavreid
- Start date
If that is the case they have taken even a single penny in government furlough grants over the covid period that could only be viewed as serious fraud IMHO.
Stuart Frazer
pfm Member
P&O will just defend that by saying the money provided supported those job roles and service operations during that non-profitable time and in which the company has lost money and continues to do so....
simon g
Older, wiser but no longer retired
I'm not sure if you're after the general case, or something more specific. Generally, it's the job that is made redundant, not the person. If you make a person redundant but then take on someone else to do the same job, then that's almost certainly unfair dismissal. There's loads of references to thi, this is just one
https://www.jobsite.co.uk/advice/can-you-be-made-redundant-if-your-job-still-exists
gavreid
Pretty Words...
Here's a summary of the law on collective redundanicies and the duty the consult 'with a view to reaching an agreement' See the pitiful level of the fine...
"Section 193 (1) and (2) of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 provide that notice must given to the Secretary of State at least 90 days before proposing to dismiss as redundant 100 or more employees at one establishment within a period of 90 days.
The same applies with a limit of 30 days for between 20 and 99 employees before giving notice to terminate employees' contracts of employment.
The date of notice is the date the notification is received by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Failure to notify can lead to legal proceedings and on conviction up to a fine of £5,000."
https://www.netlawman.co.uk/ia/collective-redundancies
"Section 193 (1) and (2) of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 provide that notice must given to the Secretary of State at least 90 days before proposing to dismiss as redundant 100 or more employees at one establishment within a period of 90 days.
The same applies with a limit of 30 days for between 20 and 99 employees before giving notice to terminate employees' contracts of employment.
The date of notice is the date the notification is received by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Failure to notify can lead to legal proceedings and on conviction up to a fine of £5,000."
https://www.netlawman.co.uk/ia/collective-redundancies
tonerei
pfm Member
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news...-routes-unless-staff-go-quietly-25967299.html
Link to the playbook. We had demonstrations in Dublin during this. No joy in the end the company prevailed. Brexit has nothing to do with this type of stuff
Link to the playbook. We had demonstrations in Dublin during this. No joy in the end the company prevailed. Brexit has nothing to do with this type of stuff
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
Except much was made of Brexit being the answer to UK jobs for UK workers. So it would be at least consistent to see some of the same players contribute the same level of concern. Whoops that will be tumbleweed.
Richard Lines
pfm Member
Good Afternoon All,
As some of you will be aware I am a professional seafarer and ex-Captain so have some experience of these kind of activities and this is hardly, unfortunately, unprecedented.
I was employed by BP Shipping a way back in January 1986 when they made all of us redundant and then offered us re-employment under worse terms and conditions the same day (if you wanted to sign on the dotted line of course).
An automatic reaction is that the TUPE regulations should protect against such activities but I don't believe there has been one instance where this near toothless set of regulations has ever served to protect a seafarer since they were introduced in 1981(?).
In my case the redundancy terms were in line with BP company practice at the time so a months pay a year served and three months in lieu of notice. In this case I suspect payments will be the one week per year served 'minimum'.
The rot regarding employment of British persons on ships operating out of the UK has been going on for decades.
The offshore oil industry is a prime example of this and so is the burgeoning wind industry where precious few British citizens are employed in a any significant capacity.
I don't know the specifics of this case and have no doubt my union will be posting information shortly.
The shipping industry has been leading the world in a drive to the lowest common denominator for decades. I was on a Norwegian registered vessel last September which a year previously had been all Norwegian officers but was down to just the three at the time I was onboard. This vessel was on the 'second' Norwegian register and allowed to do this.
Broadly I have enjoyed my time at sea but I couldn't recommend it to any young British citizen in this day and age until such time as there was some firm indication that the British government were going to 'protect' such employment.
If the Argentinians decided to attack the Falklands tomorrow there is no way we could hope to emulate our reaction of 1982 in terms of response, certainly from a civilian shipping point of view let alone militarily.
Regards
Richard
As some of you will be aware I am a professional seafarer and ex-Captain so have some experience of these kind of activities and this is hardly, unfortunately, unprecedented.
I was employed by BP Shipping a way back in January 1986 when they made all of us redundant and then offered us re-employment under worse terms and conditions the same day (if you wanted to sign on the dotted line of course).
An automatic reaction is that the TUPE regulations should protect against such activities but I don't believe there has been one instance where this near toothless set of regulations has ever served to protect a seafarer since they were introduced in 1981(?).
In my case the redundancy terms were in line with BP company practice at the time so a months pay a year served and three months in lieu of notice. In this case I suspect payments will be the one week per year served 'minimum'.
The rot regarding employment of British persons on ships operating out of the UK has been going on for decades.
The offshore oil industry is a prime example of this and so is the burgeoning wind industry where precious few British citizens are employed in a any significant capacity.
I don't know the specifics of this case and have no doubt my union will be posting information shortly.
The shipping industry has been leading the world in a drive to the lowest common denominator for decades. I was on a Norwegian registered vessel last September which a year previously had been all Norwegian officers but was down to just the three at the time I was onboard. This vessel was on the 'second' Norwegian register and allowed to do this.
Broadly I have enjoyed my time at sea but I couldn't recommend it to any young British citizen in this day and age until such time as there was some firm indication that the British government were going to 'protect' such employment.
If the Argentinians decided to attack the Falklands tomorrow there is no way we could hope to emulate our reaction of 1982 in terms of response, certainly from a civilian shipping point of view let alone militarily.
Regards
Richard
farfromthesun
pfm Member
The huge plunge in trade and increase in red tape between the EU and UK plays its part; significant numbers of trucks exporting products will no longer be travelling back and forth as they were previously. Without these, I'd imagine that running these ferries got vastly more expensive.
The ease with which huge firms like P&O can just lose so many staff is also factored in; much more difficult to do pre-Brexit.
They may not be the only reasons but the "nothing to do with Brexit" arguments I am seeing at the minute don't really seem to hold much water.
PsB
Citizen of Nowhere™
I'll make sure to continue avoiding P&O for trips to and from the Continent - miserable company. Brittany Ferries do a pretty good job across the Channel and are bringing back all their ferries into service, so don't know why P&O are struggling so much. Maybe the Dover-Calais stretch is just no longer viable for them post-Brexit.
If the British government wanted to apply pressure on DP World (P&O's owner in Dubai) they could probably make life more difficult for them. DP World operates some of the big container terminals in the UK (London Gateway and Southampton) and are lining up for more of the Governments vaunted "freeports" (London Gateway combined with Port of Tilbury is the first one). But this government will probably see this as an additional reason to cave in and do nothing - free markets and all that.
If the British government wanted to apply pressure on DP World (P&O's owner in Dubai) they could probably make life more difficult for them. DP World operates some of the big container terminals in the UK (London Gateway and Southampton) and are lining up for more of the Governments vaunted "freeports" (London Gateway combined with Port of Tilbury is the first one). But this government will probably see this as an additional reason to cave in and do nothing - free markets and all that.
droodzilla
pfm Member
Disgusting behaviour:
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1504464330288349186
The redundancy notice is delivered with all the charm and compassion of a nightclub bouncer.
Meanwhile, let anyone who resists know who's the boss:
Wish I used ferries more often. I'd take great delight in boycotting these bastards.
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1504464330288349186
The redundancy notice is delivered with all the charm and compassion of a nightclub bouncer.
Meanwhile, let anyone who resists know who's the boss:
Wish I used ferries more often. I'd take great delight in boycotting these bastards.
Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
I would immediately stop DP World from running any UK freeports or being able to bid for any.
Disgusting behaviour, I hope the RMT sees them in court.
Enfield boy
pfm Member
With the shower we have in govt more likely to see riot police in Dover and the RMT's funds sequestered.
robs
should know how this works by no
Is this really as it seems? I've only watched the BBC (hmm) but..
The positions have been made redundant - but others (overseas contractors) are taking the same roles with immediate effect.
No notice.
Nobody knew in advance and no consultation?
Surely that rides roughshod over all UK employment law regarding redundancies? If so, that's a pretty awful precedent....and there will surely be more of the same if the government doesn't intervene and make an example of them?
The positions have been made redundant - but others (overseas contractors) are taking the same roles with immediate effect.
No notice.
Nobody knew in advance and no consultation?
Surely that rides roughshod over all UK employment law regarding redundancies? If so, that's a pretty awful precedent....and there will surely be more of the same if the government doesn't intervene and make an example of them?
puddlesplasher
pfm Member
Why do I get the feeling that Johnson knew this was coming and that was another reason for running off to Saudi.
kensalriser
pfm Member
Dubai owned company - workers are lucky they haven't been imprisoned on trumped up charges.
Bob McC
Living the life of Riley
The BBC has this.
"The approach adopted by P&O is not unheard of, but it is exceptional to forego appropriate notice and consultation processes," said Nathan Donaldson, employment solicitor at Keystone Law.
He said a government review of firing and rehiring in November 2021 did not outlaw the practice but emphasised "that it should be a process of last resort".
tonerei
pfm Member
Sorry wasn't trying to bring Brexit into the argument but just as @Richard Lines posted this is established practice. B and I Ferries was another example of this on Irish routes many years ago. I have limited understanding of it but in my limited understanding generally goes along the lines of registering the vessels elsewhere and importing crews from wherever. In Irish Ferries case they got Eastern European staff to operate the boats. Not sure what they did at higher levels.
BTW just for clarity I don't like it one bit.
As a user the boats were very dreary affairs. Throw back to the eighties.
Also Irish Ferries fares haven't dropped to match the savings they made from doing the manpower exchange. But the management got very wealthy on it.
It's not a UK company afaik. Dubai I think. So they are employed by XYZ Ltd of Dubai, they are not employed in the UK. The shop may rock in the UK but it also goes to Zeebrugge etc.
eisenach
pfm Member
P&O under its various guises has been a serial abuser of its employees for the last 20 or 30 years, which is why I have always avoided using the company. The others may be better or worse, I don't know, but P&O has had frequent bad press for its employment tactics. Enough for me to boycott them.