As the effects of brexit become better understood by the general population the standing of those that opposed it will grow and those that supported it or quietly accepted it will shrink. Come the next election being a remoaner is almost certainly going to be a plus particularly in Leave seats most of which will be hardest hit by brexit unless the current government moves very strongly to be electable in 5 years and against the interests of those funding brexit and the rightward shift of the party. It is possible but perhaps unlikely. We will almost certainly know within a year if we move towards a brexit in name only or a hard brexit.
Next Labour Leader II
- Thread starter Sue Pertwee-Tyr
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jackbarron
Chelsea, London
Sorry don't have the links. It was in a spat during the general election before Johnson went into hiding.
Jack
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
Many thanks for that. I might be turning towards Starmer. I have my misgivings, but he seems a more acceptable choice to a wider audience.Full speech available here, hosted by Doreen Laurence, mother of murdered Stephen Laurence. Personally, I thought he looked more comfortable working than socialising, there was none of that bouncing around and hugging people, moments of lightheartedness rather than jokes. He watches the room and people, it reminded me of a QC I had to work with in the past. Professional. He clearly adores his wife.
https://www.pscp.tv/Keir_Starmer/1kvJpRvpvjaKE
The one from London School of Economics is for being "a leader amongst academics and practitioners in human rights law." Give them a ring Monday, see if you can get me one too.
The disaster that was the last election at least means we don’t now have a Labour government that will be blamed for the looming economic turbulence coming our way. Also, to be deeply cynical, Corbyn can be the sacrificial goat, he has the beard, that can cast a drift with all the blame for Labour’s woe on board.
RLB comes across well and stands for some good essential things like the Green Deal, but she will have the media against her in such a manner as to bring the scapegoat back to shore.
Will Starmer stand a better chance of leaving the past behind and move forward with a focus on holding Johnson to account and a drive for properly funded public services?
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
Yes. Petition signed. Probably too late now, but here it is again
https://www.change.org/p/labour-mps...date-for-leader-get-clive-lewis-on-the-ballot
Errr... we prevented a labour government?
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
The only way any Labour opposition would’ve won the last election was by being more pro Brexit it than the Tories
Seanm
pfm Member
I honestly wouldn't include vulnerability to media attack or association/break with Corbyn in your calculations KS, they're all vulnerable. One difference is that Starmer might be tempted to make sacrifices in order to demonstrate "credibility" etc. and RLB won't, judging on past performance (RLB voted against the 2015 welfare bill, as did Lewis; Starmer abstained). I mean that's speculation, maybe Starmer's come on.Many thanks for that. I might be turning towards Starmer. I have my misgivings, but he seems a more acceptable choice to a wider audience.
The disaster that was the last election at least means we don’t now have a Labour government that will be blamed for the looming economic turbulence coming our way. Also, to be deeply cynical, Corbyn can be the sacrificial goat, he has the beard, that can cast a drift with all the blame for Labour’s woe on board.
RLB comes across well and stands for some good essential things like the Green Deal, but she will have the media against her in such a manner as to bring the scapegoat back to shore.
Will Starmer stand a better chance of leaving the past behind and move forward with a focus on holding Johnson to account and a drive for properly funded public services?
deanf
pfm Member
Another way of putting it is that, Kier Starmer followed the Labour Party whip, Jeremy Corbyn did not,
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...against-the-tories-welfare-bill-10404831.html
Any electable party would have won given the appalling record of the governing conservative party over the last decade w.r.t to the interests of the 99% rather than 1%. Of course, had there been an electable labour party the conservatives party moving to the extreme almost certainly wouldn't have been possible. History is not going to be kind to the labour party for moving to the extreme and failing to provide an effective opposition.
This election is likely to determine if labour consolidates it's current position or seeks to return towards the centre. The former is likely to be fairly smooth along with a continuing exodus of centre left moderates (hopefully towards a moderate party rather than away from politics which seems the choice for most at present) the latter will prolong the internal turmoil given many of those currently in control of the party will need to be dislodged and are unlikely to go willingly.
Seanm
pfm Member
Sure, should have mentioned the context. But it does Starmer no favours. I don't want a leader who is himself so easily led to abandon quite basic socialist principles in the name of "listening to people" and "credibility". That's how that really quite appalling whip was justified, and we're going to hear a lot of the same kind of noise now. We need a leader who understand what that demand means when it comes from the right, and understands too what listening to people and credibility mean from a left perspective. RLB got it instinctively, it seems, as did Lewis (they were all new to parliament).
Seanm
pfm Member
The Conservatives have moved left, economically - almost certainly thanks to Labour's own journey. It was always clear that they were going to move right socially to exploit Brexit nationalism, and that would have been the same whoever was in charge in Labour. That is part of modern Conservativism's deep historical mission. Anyway according to your own logic, Labour have left a massive hole in the centre of politics where the true desires of the electorate lie: so really that should have left the way clear for the Tories to become less rather than more extreme.
Stunsworth
pfm Member
But then they'd have lost the Labour voters in remain seats - and most Labour voters supported remain.
deanf
pfm Member
No, I don’t agree with that. I’m a member of the Labour part because it’s the best way of getting my values across, not because I like everything it does. Breaking the whip should be the exception and not the rule.
Aside from the fact he’d been an MP for four months, there's no way in the world Starmer or any other labour member supported that legislation (ok, maybe Liz Kendal), but he took collective responsibility. If you don’t like something, change it. And that’s what Starmer is doing now, taking control.
The guy is a born leader, we'd be beyond stupid to miss this opportunity.
glancaster
In the silicon vale
Many thanks for that. I might be turning towards Starmer. I have my misgivings, but he seems a more acceptable choice to a wider audience.
The disaster that was the last election at least means we don’t now have a Labour government that will be blamed for the looming economic turbulence coming our way. Also, to be deeply cynical, Corbyn can be the sacrificial goat, he has the beard, that can cast a drift with all the blame for Labour’s woe on board.
RLB comes across well and stands for some good essential things like the Green Deal, but she will have the media against her in such a manner as to bring the scapegoat back to shore.
Will Starmer stand a better chance of leaving the past behind and move forward with a focus on holding Johnson to account and a drive for properly funded public services?
That's a beautiful photo (and goat). I wonder if it can be encouraged to throw its hat into the ring?
Stunsworth
pfm Member
It's a painting "The Scapegoat" by William Holman Hunt...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scapegoat_(painting)
It's in the Lever Art Gallery in Port Sunlight - worth a visit if you're in the area.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
Absolutely agree. The Welfare Bill was a real low point for the Labour Party, a sign, large and flashing neon, that Labour had totally lost its way. Corbyn bought Labour back on track and it needs to make sure it does it doesn’t lose its way like that again.
Also agree that whoever becomes leader will hammered by the press, that’s obvious to anyone who isn’t myopic, but I fear that as with Corbyn, any message RLB has will get drowned about by the press squealing in unison, ‘yes, but what about Corbyn?’ Maybe someone who has the support of the centrists will be able to be heard?
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
You’ve referred to the need to service the interests of the 99% rather than the 1% before, yet the only politician who has addressed that issue head on in the last half century or so, you have nothing but contempt for, which I’m afraid I find quite contradictory.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
Yes, though I always thought that support for remain has been overestimated by remainders by some way.
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