New Tiger Paw Sratos Sondek plinth ?
- Thread starter Spudgun
- Start date
TPA
Trade: Tiger Paw
Thanks, yes it's quite a complicated machining process to complete them.
For sure there is a certain presence about the plinth in the flesh, but of course beauty, or otherwise, is always in the eye of the beholder. At the end of the day it's primarily been designed to provide a more inert platform for the LP12 mechanics.
@Mark Y, I've had a few projects on the go and running concurrently so must have forgotten to mention it that this was was completed and ready for release!
Tony L
Administrator
What is the design logic behind this and the Stiletto? I’m curious as to why such “rigidity” is seen as a bonus and how it is damped to stop it ringing given a hollowed-out solid block of metal is often referred to as a ‘bell’! They look beautifully made etc, I’m just curious as to the design logic. I’ve not heard any of these plinths so have no opinion beyond the academic.
I’m genuinely puzzled as my own approach to turntable design did a 180 degree kick-flip way back in the late ‘90s after a legthy chat with the late Tom Fletcher of Nottingham Analogue. His view of turntable design was to avoid ringing and resonance at all costs and he was the polar opposite of the ‘Linn tight’ school of over-tightening every conceivable screw or bolt. His view was ‘tight enough to stop it moving or falling apart, but no more’ and that makes so much sense to me as it prevents ringing. I now apply that logic to both turntables and speakers. It is one reason I love the BBC thin-wall cabs with screwed baffles so much, they store little energy being light and assuming the baffles and back-doors aren’t overtightened they don’t have resonance anywhere near the critical mid band, they are very ‘low-Q’. I tend not to like heavy MDF speakers as they just do everything wrong to my mind (and ears) in this respect.
The first time I tried Tom Fletcher’s ideology on a turntable was adjusting the nut which attaches the RB300 to a Rega Planar 3. Tight it sounds like we all think of a Rega 3, i.e. pretty good, but a bit thin, dry and forward. Do that nut up just finger-tight (i.e. don’t even use a spanner, just tight enough that you can use the cueing arm without the arm moving) and the deck changes character to something with a more natural body and far more neutral and believable sound. It sounds so much more ‘grown up’. I later owned a Spacedeck for a while and played extensively with bolt tightness in many areas, every time agreeing with what Fletcher told me that day. My more recent excursions with the Garrard 301 and TD-124 are built using this mindset; I have listened to different bolt tensions holding the arm-board to the deck, the arm to the arm board etc etc and every single time tightening makes it far worse to my ears. I have everything tight enough that it can’t move, but not tight enough to couple materials into a single resonant structure. The last thing I want is a bell or a drum!
I’m genuinely puzzled as my own approach to turntable design did a 180 degree kick-flip way back in the late ‘90s after a legthy chat with the late Tom Fletcher of Nottingham Analogue. His view of turntable design was to avoid ringing and resonance at all costs and he was the polar opposite of the ‘Linn tight’ school of over-tightening every conceivable screw or bolt. His view was ‘tight enough to stop it moving or falling apart, but no more’ and that makes so much sense to me as it prevents ringing. I now apply that logic to both turntables and speakers. It is one reason I love the BBC thin-wall cabs with screwed baffles so much, they store little energy being light and assuming the baffles and back-doors aren’t overtightened they don’t have resonance anywhere near the critical mid band, they are very ‘low-Q’. I tend not to like heavy MDF speakers as they just do everything wrong to my mind (and ears) in this respect.
The first time I tried Tom Fletcher’s ideology on a turntable was adjusting the nut which attaches the RB300 to a Rega Planar 3. Tight it sounds like we all think of a Rega 3, i.e. pretty good, but a bit thin, dry and forward. Do that nut up just finger-tight (i.e. don’t even use a spanner, just tight enough that you can use the cueing arm without the arm moving) and the deck changes character to something with a more natural body and far more neutral and believable sound. It sounds so much more ‘grown up’. I later owned a Spacedeck for a while and played extensively with bolt tightness in many areas, every time agreeing with what Fletcher told me that day. My more recent excursions with the Garrard 301 and TD-124 are built using this mindset; I have listened to different bolt tensions holding the arm-board to the deck, the arm to the arm board etc etc and every single time tightening makes it far worse to my ears. I have everything tight enough that it can’t move, but not tight enough to couple materials into a single resonant structure. The last thing I want is a bell or a drum!
Rockmeister
pfm Member
Linn bots? Blimey!
TPA
Trade: Tiger Paw
Tony, in this particular instance, and I can only relate this to our own item, the Stratos plinth, it is based around the reduction of resonances between adjoining parts. We originally developed the Khan top plate which achieved two things; firstly it provided a much more stable platform for the motor, plinth and suspension to be mounted to,secondly it was geometrically flat which improved suspension set up etc, and thirdly it incorporated a system to ensure much better coupling to the plinth to avoid rattles and resonances.
The full plinth really takes that much further in terms of eliminating the joints and providing a relatively inert and stable platform. In terms of the properties of different materials and whether they ring or not, that can be misleading in some ways. As you have encountered with how components are attached to each other, this introduces inconsistencies and significant variation in how energy is transferred. It's a very complicated area to predict and manage how resonances travel around a deck, and in this instance it's also complicated by trying to work within the constraints of an existing design. My belief is that you can not eliminate all resonances, but it is a matter of making sure that there are no nasty peaks, and secondly where there are resonances they are not in critical areas. It's further complicated by the plinth supporting a heavy suspended sub chassis, platter and arm, which also react to movement which in turn affects the relationship with the drive motor. In it's simplest terms a record player is supposed to be a highly accurate measuring device but this is hard to achieve across a wide band with.
The full plinth really takes that much further in terms of eliminating the joints and providing a relatively inert and stable platform. In terms of the properties of different materials and whether they ring or not, that can be misleading in some ways. As you have encountered with how components are attached to each other, this introduces inconsistencies and significant variation in how energy is transferred. It's a very complicated area to predict and manage how resonances travel around a deck, and in this instance it's also complicated by trying to work within the constraints of an existing design. My belief is that you can not eliminate all resonances, but it is a matter of making sure that there are no nasty peaks, and secondly where there are resonances they are not in critical areas. It's further complicated by the plinth supporting a heavy suspended sub chassis, platter and arm, which also react to movement which in turn affects the relationship with the drive motor. In it's simplest terms a record player is supposed to be a highly accurate measuring device but this is hard to achieve across a wide band with.
Rockmeister
pfm Member
So Linn, after 40 years of development, have only just worked this out? Or, if the arguement is that these are all minute steps forward then it's a shame they cost so much. It really does leave one a tad cynical and under funded.
I appreciate that many love the idea of tweaks and improvements, but to continue with a design so flawed that it still can be bettered is pushing credibility. I wonder how many times SME, for example have upgraded the MK V tonearm. or the 20 deck?
I appreciate that many love the idea of tweaks and improvements, but to continue with a design so flawed that it still can be bettered is pushing credibility. I wonder how many times SME, for example have upgraded the MK V tonearm. or the 20 deck?
david ellwood
Kirabosi Kognoscente
I don't know of anyone that has heard one so I think it's early to give any opinions.
The stiletto is amazing and I would love to be able to afford one.
If the stratos manages to equal it's performance for the saving it would be high on my wants list.
Hopefully we will have a demonstration of its merits soon.
The stiletto is amazing and I would love to be able to afford one.
If the stratos manages to equal it's performance for the saving it would be high on my wants list.
Hopefully we will have a demonstration of its merits soon.
Rockmeister
pfm Member
what it will sound like is different. Linn has many fans and they are generally not very critical of Linn's philosophy, so I am quite certain that 'different' will = 'better' to most. And I don't need to post here either, I know 
Off to plant tomato seeds
Off to plant tomato seeds
Nic Robinson
Moderator
The LP12 is a fine deck and infinitely tweak-able as the very regular threads about the latest modification, whether from Linn or fine third parties testify. I do feel inclined to Rockmeister's view, however. I'm just glad I got out when I did. It feels a bit like striving for the ultimate Austin Allegro if I'm honest.
DNM
pfm Member
So the LP12 is a fine deck like the Austin Allegro was a fine car?
You almost had me fooled for a moment.
TPA
Trade: Tiger Paw
what it will sound like is different. Linn has many fans and they are generally not very critical of Linn's philosophy, so I am quite certain that 'different' will = 'better' to most. And I don't need to post here either, I know
Off to plant tomato seeds
I have to admit to a degree of obsession, I find it stimulating and fascinating to extract more from vinyl. It's exciting when you're whole record collection gets upgraded
However, I fully respect the fact that people should seek to be comfortable with what they have, (contentment should be a healthy objective) but there are others who enjoy the journey of improvement and we should all be able to relate to that hopefully. I know that people get stressed about LP12s etc, and upgrades but it would be a boring world if we all liked the same thing.
Nic Robinson
Moderator
Rockmeister
pfm Member
Damn the tomatoes!
I heard my first LP12 in the mid 70's I think. I'd been impressed by a pals Acoustic Research turntable and had gone auditioning in order to help spend my pay checque. I bought a TD150 instead, but the Linn was excellent too. I next heard one when the TD150 had to go. The competition then was a PT and a Rock Mk2. The PT won that battle, but the HiFi dealership where I worked part time had an ex demo rock for half that cost, so. The linn, on that occasion, still sounded much like the 70's version and very close to my old TD150. The PT was way ahead to me, the Rock weirdly clean and detailed with amazing bass...both designs were offering something I'd not heard before. Real advances in vinyl replay IMO.
My last proper encounter came when the Rock and I decided to part company. The Linn wasn't on my list, but one dealer I visited was using the latest incarnation as his demo deck (I was also changing amps at this time). It was still a Linn. Same signature sound. I bought a Palmer. The Palmer seemed to me to be another pace forward in vinyl replay. The Linn was very very good 1975.
1975 was a very good year, and Linns make a great sound. My point is that if Nics Allegro sounds a bit unfair, you could substitute W123 series merc instead. I owned a '75 123 estate and there are people who restore and tweak these too, but few pretend that the car actually is better than say a modern BMW 5 series.
NOW Tomatoes...I'm coming for you!
I heard my first LP12 in the mid 70's I think. I'd been impressed by a pals Acoustic Research turntable and had gone auditioning in order to help spend my pay checque. I bought a TD150 instead, but the Linn was excellent too. I next heard one when the TD150 had to go. The competition then was a PT and a Rock Mk2. The PT won that battle, but the HiFi dealership where I worked part time had an ex demo rock for half that cost, so. The linn, on that occasion, still sounded much like the 70's version and very close to my old TD150. The PT was way ahead to me, the Rock weirdly clean and detailed with amazing bass...both designs were offering something I'd not heard before. Real advances in vinyl replay IMO.
My last proper encounter came when the Rock and I decided to part company. The Linn wasn't on my list, but one dealer I visited was using the latest incarnation as his demo deck (I was also changing amps at this time). It was still a Linn. Same signature sound. I bought a Palmer. The Palmer seemed to me to be another pace forward in vinyl replay. The Linn was very very good 1975.
1975 was a very good year, and Linns make a great sound. My point is that if Nics Allegro sounds a bit unfair, you could substitute W123 series merc instead. I owned a '75 123 estate and there are people who restore and tweak these too, but few pretend that the car actually is better than say a modern BMW 5 series.
NOW Tomatoes...I'm coming for you!
Nic Robinson
Moderator
Yes W123 a much better example.
John
Rack’em Up!
I thought there was a benefit going to the Khan top plate for several reasons, one being the flatness, rigidity and the improvement in coupling the top plate to the plinth. One thing I noticed is that one had to be careful on how tight to make the fasteners as too tight killed the sound.
Not sure what the additional benefit making the top plate in one with the plinth, especially when it all sits on squishy feet. I like what I’ve done with my plinth/foot interface using metal feel coupled to an energy absorbing platform which aid in sinking vibrations from the deck.
John
Rack’em Up!
The Linn Keel subchassis which most Linn enthusiasts feel is a significant improvement rings like a bell so perhaps that is a good thing.