Nazi
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George J
Herefordshire member
Furtwangler was a freeloader of the most disgusting kind.
He accepted the position of Statsrat [State Councillor] that offered many privileges, and carried on more or less as if nothing had changed once dictatorship was established.
His medical doctor was [not altogether surprisingly] Jewish, but the MD was later detained at Dachau. For Furtwangler to see his doctor, the man had to be brought from the concentration camp for a personal consultation.
Eventually the old MD succumbed to the conditions and the next time Furtwangler needed him the conductor was informed of the passing of his physician.
After that Furtwangler must have realised what a rotten regime he was supporting, even if it would have have been otherwise obvious to any but the most obtuse [and Furtwangler was far from obtuse], his work with the BPO for Goebells' ProMi [Propaganda Ministry] continued un-attenuated, but he shortly after had the chance to stay [defect some might say] in neutral Sweden where he travelled to to conduct Schubert's Great C Major Symphony with the Stockholm Philharmonic. Even Nazi Germany would not have invaded Sweden for the most famous conductor still serving the Nazi cause. ... serving the Nazi cause with many appearances at the Nuremberg Rally Festivals and so on as well as broadcasting on the Reich rundfunk sender.
So no - of course - Furtwangler did not actually initiate any Nazi policies, and, even at first, did flight the ban on Mendelsohnn [as Jewish music], but he whole heartedly fellow-travelled in the most disgusting and complete way. I find any performance involving such a moral bankrupt [not just from him] totally creepy. It is ghoulish to enjoy the work of such craven people. Creepy is the word ... none better.
I have to thank the Oxford University Press for publishing Sam Shirakawa's book, "The Devil's Music Master," for the sources for these facts that have not been disputed. I commend the book from a pro-Furtwangler author, as it unintentionally shows exactly what the famous non-Party member was really like in every other way.
I hope that clarifies ...
Best wishes from George.
PS: I am half Norwegian and if you wish I can show even more evidence for just how pro-Nazi were Furtanwangler's actions and deeds were, if not his mute public position on the serving the Nazis what they so needed.
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Todd A
pfm Member
That's the only thing that matters. Now, what about Strauss? My understanding is he, like Furtwangler, was appropriately denazified, but perhaps not.
I'm entirely unconcerned with whether Furtwangler was a freeloader, or disgusting, or creepy, or whatever. Proclamations about such things are mere virtue signaling.
Barrymagrec
pfm Member
Strauss, in my opinion was not a nazi believer, he had grown up with his father Fanz, the Dennis Brain of his day, in a court orchestra before WW1, he had seen many changes of rule, none which lasted and he didn`t see Hitler as much different.
He also had Jewish friends and collaborators and a Jewish daughter in law.
I think he simply saw the nazis as a temporary aberration that would soon pass and simply took the required steps to allow him to get on with his work.
He also had Jewish friends and collaborators and a Jewish daughter in law.
I think he simply saw the nazis as a temporary aberration that would soon pass and simply took the required steps to allow him to get on with his work.
George J
Herefordshire member
Dear Todd,
The case of Strauss does not much interest me as his music does not engage me. Therefore what he was like and what he did is no more a concern to me than the millions of other Germans who actually behaved quite similarly. The case of Furtwangler is different for me in that he specialised in much music that does engage me, and he is praised as a some kind of iconic artist who one should not ignore ...
That conductors like Fritz Busch felt that the regime was so awful that he felt forced to emigrate indicates to me a strong moral compass. He left right at the start, while Furtwangler felt able to stay and loyally serve the Nazis right until January 1945, when he escaped to Switzerland and was promptly arrested and imprisoned by the Swiss authorities.
He spent his last night in Vienna with Baldur von Schirach, and by a man's friends may you know the man. I shall not say more about his choice of Schirach as a good friend.
If I were virtue signalling, then I would be tough on Strauss, but honestly it hardly worries me more than deploring that the Germans as a population allowed for Nazism to happen and progress with so little complaint till it was too late.
There are many musicians and artists of all sorts that I find repellent from before and after the Nazi era. For example I have a huge dislike for Gary Glitter, and Rolf Harris in an entirely different sphere. That is not virtue signalling either.
I don't virtue signal, and I find the suggest to be outside your normal civil mode of posting.
With best wishes from George Johnson.
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Todd A
pfm Member
It is virtue signaling. The signaling part comes with public proclamations about one's behavior due to moral considerations. You are free to concern yourself with the actions of people dead for decades or centuries and impose self-prohibition. I am unconcerned with such things.
George J
Herefordshire member
Dear Todd,
I am not going to grind the axe on this. I am not ashamed to say what I believe and sometimes what I do as a result. If that is your definition, or even the actual definition, of virtue signalling, then I'll happily virtue signal, as it sets an example for those more timid.
For example, I could never vote for a racist politician. I intend to avoid ever voting for a racist politician. I am proud to virtue signal the fact.
If you find pleasure in artists who you might baulk at sharing [or might have shared] company with, that is fine by me. It takes all sorts to make the world go round. One way of assessing the issue for me would be, would I let artist X [assuming he or she were an acquaintance of mine of course] babysit my children? It is a very simple test that actually excludes quite a few interesting artists, but it seems reasonable to me.
Best wishes from George
I am not going to grind the axe on this. I am not ashamed to say what I believe and sometimes what I do as a result. If that is your definition, or even the actual definition, of virtue signalling, then I'll happily virtue signal, as it sets an example for those more timid.
For example, I could never vote for a racist politician. I intend to avoid ever voting for a racist politician. I am proud to virtue signal the fact.
If you find pleasure in artists who you might baulk at sharing [or might have shared] company with, that is fine by me. It takes all sorts to make the world go round. One way of assessing the issue for me would be, would I let artist X [assuming he or she were an acquaintance of mine of course] babysit my children? It is a very simple test that actually excludes quite a few interesting artists, but it seems reasonable to me.
Best wishes from George
Tony L
Administrator
That is a remarkably right-wing framing. In fact the only people who would consider using phrases like ‘virtue signalling’, ‘woke’ etc are almost exclusively those looking to defend the indefensible, trying to bury the crimes of the past, rewrite history etc. It is a very dangerous mindset. Far better to look closely, excuse nothing, and learn.
There is nuanced debate to be had around characters such as Furtwangler, Karajan, Schwarzkopf etc and what they knew, what they believed in, how complicit they were, but analysing past mindsets and behaviour is how we all move forwards. I want reality.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
George J
Herefordshire member
About Schwarzkopf, with reference to Klemperer during his famous recording of Brahms' German Requiem [for EMI], they had just made a splendid take, and Klemperer said [in a mock whisper] to the orchestra leader., "Well. That Ilse Koch, certainly can sing!"
Klemperer was no friend to the community of musicians who served the Nazi regime, one way or indeed some other. I doubt that Klemperer would have chosen Schwarzkopf for the recording, but Walter Legge was both her husband and producer of the recording, so he had the choice. And yes I do find this a satisfying listen, but always find myself chuckling at Klemperer's irreverence afterwards. Hard not to really!
Best wishes from George
Klemperer was no friend to the community of musicians who served the Nazi regime, one way or indeed some other. I doubt that Klemperer would have chosen Schwarzkopf for the recording, but Walter Legge was both her husband and producer of the recording, so he had the choice. And yes I do find this a satisfying listen, but always find myself chuckling at Klemperer's irreverence afterwards. Hard not to really!
Best wishes from George
George J
Herefordshire member
Well a barge pole at the minimum comes to mind were I to be standing within sight of Goodall!
I did not have to read the linked Wiki to state that, though it seems undisputed as to where he stood a propo Nazism from it. [Edited after visiting the link].
Best wishes from George
Todd A
pfm Member
Not really, but if that's what you wish to believe, that's fine. As I wrote before, there is nothing I can do to change what such people did or will do, and virtue signaling about this or that bad person of the past, or even the present, achieves nothing at all.
In the case of Furtwangler, Strauss, et al, posts regarding these people inevitably involve yet more "discussions" about WWII, which is basically the only historical event of any significance online. The war is over. The allies won. The sun is hot. Nazis are bad. Hopefully we can all agree on those four points.
Agreed. Note that I excused nothing and denied nothing. All the various Nazi collaborators were bad people. I continue to listen to their music if I like their performances. The various sexual predators felled in recent years in the classical music arena were and are bad people. I continue to listen to their music if I like their performances. I listen to the music of Gesualdo, and he committed murder. I am entirely unburdened by the bad things other people do because it literally has nothing to do with me.
Tony L
Administrator
I like to understand art as much as possible and that includes trying to get a handle on the personality and motivations behind the creative process. I own more music biographies/autobiographies than any other printed form. I’ve not suggested I boycott dead Nazis (only live ones!). I do have a fair bit of Karajan, I love Schwarzkopf’s Four Last Songs, and I even have a Furtwangler album somewhere even though I’ve never taken to his style. I just don’t want their histories bleaching out.
In the current culture in the UK, USA, Russia etc this is a real issue with the ever more powerful and radical political right trying to erase their past (slavery, genocide, imperialism, colonialism etc). Understanding how people reacted to the events of their day is important to me. Jazz, probably my favourite musical form, was clearly born as a protest music against racist culture it evolved in. The context and backdrop for all art is always interesting and often highly significant IMO. This was especially so in the Nazi era with so much great art and music being branded ‘degenerate’ by the all-powerful establishment.
PS Could you really hope to understand Shostakovich without understanding the political backdrop?
Todd A
pfm Member
I live in the US, and I am not familiar with anyone denying that slavery existed, that it was bad, and so on. Perhaps this refers to various Florida goings-on.
Perhaps not, but it is unclear whether people who did not experience Soviet oppression will ever fully understand his music. As the world is now a generation removed from the existence of the USSR and two generations removed from DSCH being alive, considerations of the politics of the place and time become ever more abstracted, less grounded in lived reality, less attached to experience. Knowing the background is a nice to have, but one doesn't need a deep knowledge of politics and history to understand what the 13th Symphony is about, or to react to or even recoil from the intensity of the 8th String Quartet, depending on how it is performed.
As to other musical forms, be it jazz or blues or even rock, the origins of that music are increasingly academic in nature. Even for people who listen to music seriously and treat as more than mere background noise, the historic details are often irrelevant. If someone puts on Ellington, it is doubtful they ruminate about early 20th Century oppression. Someone who puts of Christian McBride is even less likely to do so. Indeed, one can look at classical music and see how only the tiniest fraction of people concern themselves with the groundbreaking or even radical music that is now ancient and conservative. Most fans of classical music don't actively discuss the revolutionary nature of the Eroica, the shocking developments of Tristan (or Wagner's personal unpleasantness), or the radical nature of Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun. Schoenberg's radical works are more often discussed in these terms, but that's because almost no one actually listens to Schoenberg, and those who do are more likely to discuss it.
Cheese
Bitter lover
This LP has accompanied me since my teens, on good and on less good days, I still listen to it now and again. I know every microsyllable of it by heart, yet to this day I find things to explore in it. In recent years it was mainly Edwin Fischer's wonderful playing that grabbed my attention.
Now some things can be said about the protagonists, Schwarzkopf more so than Fischer. What I think of them and their political views has no effect on anyone on this planet, but I am convinced that in all these years, this record (along with a few others) has made me a better person. I know more about life and how the world works, thanks to these artists.
There are more extreme examples, like Willem Mengelberg, who placed the Concertgebouw Orchestra and its hall on the worldwide map of music. Countless artists could perform there since, Jewish composer Gustav Mahler has never sounded better than at the Concertgebouw. People with a questionable reputation can do a lot of good long-term.
Now some things can be said about the protagonists, Schwarzkopf more so than Fischer. What I think of them and their political views has no effect on anyone on this planet, but I am convinced that in all these years, this record (along with a few others) has made me a better person. I know more about life and how the world works, thanks to these artists.
There are more extreme examples, like Willem Mengelberg, who placed the Concertgebouw Orchestra and its hall on the worldwide map of music. Countless artists could perform there since, Jewish composer Gustav Mahler has never sounded better than at the Concertgebouw. People with a questionable reputation can do a lot of good long-term.
Tony L
Administrator
He was far, far more than a Lloyd Cole collaborator (in fact I never realised he was). Kluster, Cluster and Harmonium were three hugely significant Krautrock bands. I have to admit I didn’t realise he was old enough to have been directly involved in the Nazi movement (and as a child clearly can’t be held responsible at all).
The whole Krautrock scene with it’s freedom and total rejection of rules/formality was in part a reaction against the crimes of the preceding generation. Many had parents or family who were involved, but as I understand it the musicians themselves were mostly born after 1945.
Stockhausen would have been old enough, though it looks like he managed to avoid war (Wikipedia). It appears the Nazis murdered his mentally ill mother and his father died as a soldier.
George J
Herefordshire member
Klemperer was the master of laconic responses.
One or two have been recorded at rehearsals and takes while recording.
After one very successful take whilst recording Don Giovanni, after the sound died down, Klemperer simply commented without emphasis, "Good." Then the usual orchestral shuffling and the tape ends.
Best wishes from George
One or two have been recorded at rehearsals and takes while recording.
After one very successful take whilst recording Don Giovanni, after the sound died down, Klemperer simply commented without emphasis, "Good." Then the usual orchestral shuffling and the tape ends.
Best wishes from George
tones
Tones deaf
Or Walter Legge's complaining about Klemperer's slow tempo in a recording and Klemperer's reply, "You'll get used to it" - and then adding insult to injury by regularly ringing Legge at the control desk from the conductor's podium to ask, "Are you used to it yet, Walter?"